.45-70 Government With 500 grain Government Round Nose Bullets

Lonesome Donkey

Lonesome Donkey

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I own a nickel-plated old Ideal loading tool, perhaps 100 years old, give or take a decade (maybe older?).

When I owned one of the excellent Ruger #3 carbines back in the 80's, I cast 500 grain round-nose bullets with the integral mold of the tool, and enjoyed the experience of huge muzzle-whipping recoil with smokeless loads.

This bullet mold is still listed by Lyman. It's too long to cycle through Marlin or Henry lever actions so it's exclusively a single shot rifle proposition.

But, if you own a Sharps, Remington, 1885 Winchester, 1873 Springfield, Ruger #1 or #3, or a replica, shooting black or smokeless loads would seem a wonderful trip back in time.

Hunting with black powder loads with this bullet, likewise would be very satisfying.

So, does anyone out there have stories to tell about using this bullet and black powder?
 
Lonesome Donkey said:
I own a nickel-plated old Ideal loading tool, perhaps 100 years old, give or take a decade (maybe older?).

When I owned one of the excellent Ruger #3 carbines back in the 80's, I cast 500 grain round-nose bullets with the integral mold of the tool, and enjoyed the experience of huge muzzle-whipping recoil with smokeless loads.

This bullet mold is still listed by Lyman. It's too long to cycle through Marlin or Henry lever actions so it's exclusively a single shot rifle proposition.

But, if you own a Sharps, Remington, 1885 Winchester, 1873 Springfield, Ruger #1 or #3, or a replica, shooting black or smokeless loads would seem a wonderful trip back in time.

Hunting with black powder loads with this bullet, likewise would be very satisfying.

So, does anyone out there have stories to tell about using this bullet and black powder?
Click to expand...

I used a 500 gr. RN with BP in a Sharps (repro) 45-110. I think it was a Lee mould. Got a bear at about 75 yards. The bullet entered behind the shoulder and came out through the guts. There were guts trailing about 25 feet. The bear was bang-flop, and the bullet had gone through the lungs and liver, so it wasn't a gut shot. As far as I could tell, the bullet turned inside the bear.
 
Papaclaude said:
I used a 500 gr. RN with BP in a Sharps (repro) 45-110. I think it was a Lee mould. Got a bear at about 75 yards. The bullet entered behind the shoulder and came out through the guts. There were guts trailing about 25 feet. The bear was bang-flop, and the bullet had gone through the lungs and liver, so it wasn't a gut shot. As far as I could tell, the bullet turned inside the bear.
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So it worked? :d
 
This bullet is a particularly good one if the nose is around .448 or so diameter. It's particularly stable accuracy wise with the few
BP loads I've tried 60-68 grains but the most stellar accuracy comes from 32 grains of Reloder7 where it will 3 touching and often 4 with monotonous regularity out of a Shiloh sharps long range express.

I much prefer this bullet to the Lyman postell
 
You must be referring to the Lyman 457125 500 gr RN, a standard mould for hunters and BPCR shooters for many years. I have two of them and they shoot extremely well out of my 45-70 Shiloh Sharps '74s and Browning '86.

I've messed with other moulds and keep coming back to the 457125. I'd only consider something else if I was shooting out to 1000 yds with a 45-90.
 
I recall reading about this bullet in one of Paul Mathews black powder books. It seems that the US Army originally used a lighter bullet but had a problem with it during their battles with Indians on horseback. The Indians would frequently ride using the side of the horse to shield themselves, apparently many escaped bullet wounds by using this technique.

The heavier bullet (457125) was developed to solve this problem & it proved successful in that it completely penetrated the horse & the Indian on the other side.

I don't know if this is a true story or a legend.

I get very good accuracy from the Lyman 457125 & 457658 over black powder in my Browning 1885 BPCR.
 
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BPCR enthusiast Mike Venturino has long referred to the Lyman 457125 as his "go to" bullet when load developing for a new rifle. He shoots a Brooks 535 gr bullet in his competition loads.
 
I used a lee 45/70 500gr round nose bullet way back when i owned my first Martini 577/450.
I would load that bullet as cast, paper patched up to the dia that i needed and worked for many years shooting deer.

I sold that rifle to fund my first silhouette rifle ....hindsight i should have kept it it was a lot of fun to shoot.
 
Back in the very early '80's I had a beautiful Remington Rolling Block, built on a smokeless action and 26 inch Numrich barrel. One day in the Edmonton Bargain Finder there was an ad for a Lyman mold, 457125. I got it, and proceeded to fire a few thousand of them through the rifle over the next decade or so. As a much younger shooter recoil was endured with pride, and my friends and I would shoot it the way most people shoot a 10/22. Cast from very soft or pure lead they would hit a steel target with authority, and flatten out to nearly tin foil like thinness and about two inches in diameter.
Anyway, I bagged my first deer with it. There was a few whitetails grazing on the edge of a field. I snuck up to about 75 yards, rose to one knee, and put the bead on the shoulder and touched off. The deer dropped before I even heard the gun go off. I walked up to find a thoroughly dead buck, who just looked totally surprised. The bullet hit the shoulder high and forward. I would kill a few deer and bears with that gun and load, always with the same result.
 
Papaclaude said:
I used a 500 gr. RN with BP in a Sharps (repro) 45-110. I think it was a Lee mould. Got a bear at about 75 yards. The bullet entered behind the shoulder and came out through the guts. There were guts trailing about 25 feet. The bear was bang-flop, and the bullet had gone through the lungs and liver, so it wasn't a gut shot. As far as I could tell, the bullet turned inside the bear.
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Sot of mirrors my experience with cast bullets, rather than the traditional "expanding" that is continually strived for in a hunting bullet they will "bend" in the long shank and start tumbling, creating a very effective wound channel with any boiler room hit. Probably more effective killing action than an expanded bullet at the reduced speed we use them at.
 
Rod B said:
I recall reading about this bullet in one of Paul Mathews black powder books. It seems that the US Army originally used a lighter bullet but had a problem with it during their battles with Indians on horseback. The Indians would frequently ride using the side of the horse to shield themselves, apparently many escaped bullet wounds by using this technique.

The heavier bullet (457125) was developed to solve this problem & it proved successful in that it completely penetrated the horse & the Indian on the other side.

I don't know if this is a true story or a legend.

.
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The info is erroneous, as the 500 grain load was developed for the long infantry rifle for volley fire, the 405 grain load was retained for cavalry use.

To many Hollywood movies.
 
hickstick_10 said:
The info is erroneous, as the 500 grain load was developed for the long infantry rifle for volley fire, the 405 grain load was retained for cavalry use.

To many Hollywood movies.
Click to expand...
You are right.
The 500 gr bt was adopted to increase the range of the 45-70 rifle.
In 1873 the US adopted the 45-70 ctg:
1) 2.1" case loaded with 70 gr pdr and 405 gr bt for rifles
2) 2.1" case loaded with 55 gr pdr and 405 gr bt for carbines

In the 1879 a series of trials were done to see how rifles performed at long range , up to 3500 yd the extreme range of the 45-80-500.

The ctgs tested were:
1) 45-70-405 service load 2.1" case
2) 45-70-500 2.1" case
3) 45-80-500 2.4" case
4) 45-85-480 Martini Henry as a control

The 45-70-500 had an extreme range only slightly less than the 45-80-500 so it was decided to adopt the 45-70-500 load.
The carbine load remained 45-55-405.
 
Sharps '63 said:
You must be referring to the Lyman 457125 500 gr RN, a standard mould for hunters and BPCR shooters for many years. I have two of them and they shoot extremely well out of my 45-70 Shiloh Sharps '74s and Browning '86.

I've messed with other moulds and keep coming back to the 457125. I'd only consider something else if I was shooting out to 1000 yds with a 45-90.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's the same mould.
 
I shoot a copy of the original 500 grain lead bullet in my original Trapdoor Springfield using 70 grains of blackpowder. You have to use a drop tube and compression die to get the powder to the right depth to be able to seat the bullet to the correct overall length.
 
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