45-70 Loads

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Hi guys, looking into getting a Marlin Guide gun 18.5" barrel for hunting and bear defense/bush protection gun. Looking to reload for this gun.

Looking to develop 3 loads.

1. Bear defense load, biggest bullet moving as fast as possible, think max load possible without blowing the gun apart. Will not be fired much so not to worried about repeated use being hard on the gun, will fire enough to get accurate with the load and used to the recoil then may never shoot one again for years. Want the absolute most ft/lbs of stopping power coming out the barrel.

2. Hunting load, for deer/wolf most likely, so a medium sized bullet with medium charge I think would be best for this one.

3. Plinking load, light bullet with light powder charge, like something pushing 300 grain bullet only 800fps would be fine, want something cheap to load so I can actually afford to use the gun. Think target shooting 100 yards max for this one.

Still got 30-45 days till PAL arrives(its in progress online right now, have had one ref call in already so just playing the waiting game now) so not in a huge hurry just want to get a head start on trying to get me hands on brass and bullets and primers and powder if anyone will sell me powder without a PAL(some websites says they need PAL for powder some don't, I have purchased powder before with no PAL in person for my father at gun store so I don't think PAL is needed?)

Also considering casting own bullets for #2 and #3 loads so suggestions on molds would be appreciated.
 
1. If you want a dangerous game load you could go with a dangerous game solid from any number of bullet manufacturers. A good hard-cast bullet will do the same for anything in North America including the great bears. You're close to The Bullet Barn being in BC so you could order up some of theirs; they advertise a hardness of 25 bhn. I would pick something heavy so you can hit energy levels without velocities high enough to cause leading. Their 525gr bullet most likely wont work in a lever rifle but their 450gr one looks to have a short enough nose to work. I've used 405-500gr cast bullets with a hardness of only 12-15 bhn with stout level 2 loads (lever loads) to punch clear through 14" poplar trees. Never used one on a bear though.

2. I'd go with a 300gr hollow point for this; probably a factory jacketed bullet for reliable expansion. Cast hollow points don't expand unless fairly soft so you have very limited velocity at that point. More than enough for deer at shorter ranges so it's up to you. Could use a lower end level 2 load or even a level 1 (trap door) load depending on the range. If it's in the brush where ranges will be below 75yds, I'd use level 1 loads to save my shoulder and also try to reduce some meat loss. If you're hunting wolf for pelts I might go with a hard cast non-expanding bullet again; I can't say for sure since I've never shot a wolf.

3. A lighter cast bullet would work fine. Could even try round ball loads if you can get/cast some. In my Guide Gun I find Blue Dot to work better than Unique but YMMV. Trail Boss is also a great powder for lower velocities but I find some rifles wont shoot well with it no matter what load I try; no idea why since other rifles seem to love it. For lighter loads I use round balls, 340gr cast, and 405gr cast. If you get down to 800fps you can get some wonky accuracy because you're going too slow. I find 1200-1600fps to be a much better fps range to aim for; recoil is still fairly mild and you still aren't using that much powder.

I'd pickup the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for information on casting, cast bullet reloading, as well as load data.

For molds I use Lee molds for the round balls, 340gr, and 500gr. The 500gr are the spire point design and are too long for my lever unless single fed into the chamber but I use them in my H&R Buffalo Classic. I have a custom mold from Accurate Molds that casts .450-.451" smooth sided 405gr bullets that I paper patch up to .459-.460" for black powder and some smokeless loads. I can use hard cast lead for penetration or soft lead for expansion since the paper patch will prevent leading. Paper patching is a whole other thing though. Lee molds are cheap and make acceptable bullets but aren't the best molds around. They are the best to learn on IMO because if you absolutely wreck one you're only out $30-40.
 
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Thanks, I have herd trail boss is indeed good for slow velocities and will try that for the # 3 load.

You are right bullet barn is close to me and I will try them out for sure.

Might split the # 2 load into deer and wolf loads, one with JHP for deer one with Cast for the Wolf pelts.

Thanks for the suggestion on round balls for plinking I hadn't even thought of that, might be cheaper will look into this.
 
I can confirm that the 450gr Bullet Barn bullet will feed through a Marlin when seated to the crimp groove. It comes in at something like 2.54" oal. I mostly shoot them out of my Ruger #1.

Chris.
 
In my humble opinion your #1 load is completely unnecessary for anything in the wilds of Canada that may want to chew you up. Furthermore, the recoil in a guide gun will be so violent that for practical purposes you won't get a second shot away.
I can attest that an old, original Winchester 45-70 cartridge with a 405 grain bullet will penetrate at about a 45 degree angle, completely through a mature elk. And those bullets clocked at about 1400 fps.
My heavy hitting "defence" load would be a 400 to 420 grain load at a velocity that is easy to handle and can be shot rapidly with accuracy.
 
H4831 said:
In my humble opinion your #1 load is completely unnecessary for anything in the wilds of Canada that may want to chew you up. Furthermore, the recoil in a guide gun will be so violent that for practical purposes you won't get a second shot away.
I can attest that an old, original Winchester 45-70 cartridge with a 405 grain bullet will penetrate at about a 45 degree angle, completely through a mature elk. And those bullets clocked at about 1400 fps.
My heavy hitting "defence" load would be a 400 to 420 grain load at a velocity that is easy to handle and can be shot rapidly with accuracy.
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This might be true, I guess I can always start small and work my way up to the max load I can fire off a few consecutive shots with without the recoil getting the best of me.

I've just had one close call with a brown bear while hiking(years ago, no firearms in our party at the time) and it scared the #### outta me, no one got hurt but it was very close. We all climbed a large 10 foot tall rock and waited for the bear to leave the area, which took 10-15 min, must have been hungry or something it circled the rock for 15 min then left. I don't want to think about what would have happened if that rock hadn't been there and we tried to run for it....
 
H4831 said:
In my humble opinion your #1 load is completely unnecessary for anything in the wilds of Canada that may want to chew you up. Furthermore, the recoil in a guide gun will be so violent that for practical purposes you won't get a second shot away.
I can attest that an old, original Winchester 45-70 cartridge with a 405 grain bullet will penetrate at about a 45 degree angle, completely through a mature elk. And those bullets clocked at about 1400 fps.
My heavy hitting "defence" load would be a 400 to 420 grain load at a velocity that is easy to handle and can be shot rapidly with accuracy.
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^^^This^^^

I gave up on hotrod ding the 45/70 in a guide gun after a wicked scope bite, I also shortly thereafter gave up scoping lever guns lol. Since then I've loaded hunting and plinking loads. All my 45/70 hunting has been done with 405gr Rem SP's ahead of 46gr IMR3031, a load from some Mike Venturino article in Rifle. Any number of cast bullet options would certainly work as well or better. The plinking loads a have all been trail boss and similar loads.
 
H4831 said:
In my humble opinion your #1 load is completely unnecessary for anything in the wilds of Canada that may want to chew you up. Furthermore, the recoil in a guide gun will be so violent that for practical purposes you won't get a second shot away.
I can attest that an old, original Winchester 45-70 cartridge with a 405 grain bullet will penetrate at about a 45 degree angle, completely through a mature elk. And those bullets clocked at about 1400 fps.
My heavy hitting "defence" load would be a 400 to 420 grain load at a velocity that is easy to handle and can be shot rapidly with accuracy.
Click to expand...

leveractionjunkie said:
^^^This^^^

I gave up on hotrod ding the 45/70 in a guide gun after a wicked scope bite, I also shortly thereafter gave up scoping lever guns lol. Since then I've loaded hunting and plinking loads. All my 45/70 hunting has been done with 405gr Rem SP's ahead of 46gr IMR3031, a load from some Mike Venturino article in Rifle. Any number of cast bullet options would certainly work as well or better. The plinking loads a have all been trail boss and similar loads.
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Thirded. I loaded up to the max in my 1895XLR (after working up to it) and shot maybe 10 of them and then broke the rest down for components. They are too intense in a lever to bother with.
 
A 405gr hard cast lead bullet propelled even at moderate velocity (1100fps) is still a force to be reckoned with, very little expansion and a pile of energy = a bad day for whatever it hits...

If you want to spend money to beat yourself up just buy factory Hornady 325gr ammo, at $2 a bang a box will last a while... For plinking my favorite load is 14ish grains of trail boss under a 405gr cast TLG FP... It also doubles as my hunting load.
 
I load with imr3031 with the hornady 350rn at 2150fps and the speer 400grain flat point at 1950fps in my new marlin 22" lever. Both I would consider max and shoot amazing. Work up till you can't handle it anymore. Might not be as high as I went based on what your recoil tolerance is. Used the 350 for a nice 8 point buck this fall. Great performance. You will know what max is because you won't be able to keep your hand in the lever anymore and the lever may pop open once in a while. Pressures are safe but they buck you for sure. I worked up to Hodgons max and it was max for me also.
 
If you can get a copy of Paul Matthews book Forty Years with the .45-70, it's pretty informative. In it he writes of loading 54 grains of 4895 (lot 27277) and firing it from an 1886 Winchester. Opinions on the wisdom of that varied greatly. Winchester told him to stop, Elmer Keith evidently considered it pretty much a standard load for that rifle. Bullet used isn't real clear at that point but it seemed to be a 330 gr.

He mentions using the that load or 53 gr of 3031 to push 405 gr bullets.

His experience. Some of those boys might have pushed the envelope just a bit.
 
yonderin said:
If you can get a copy of Paul Matthews book Forty Years with the .45-70, it's pretty informative. In it he writes of loading 54 grains of 4895 (lot 27277) and firing it from an 1886 Winchester. Opinions on the wisdom of that varied greatly. Winchester told him to stop, Elmer Keith evidently considered it pretty much a standard load for that rifle. Bullet used isn't real clear at that point but it seemed to be a 330 gr.
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I've used 55gr of H4895 and the same of H4198 under a 300gr JHP and it's still within the range given for a level 2 load. I think my manual goes up to 57gr or something (don't have it handy but I do have a note in my load data records about 57gr loads). I can't see 54gr with a 330gr being unsafe (in a trapdoor, sure, but not a modern lever). If it was a 405gr or heavier that could be different.
 
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Having shot the. 45-70 fairly extensively over the last 20 years (1886 Browning, H&R Shikari, Ruger Nos. 1&3, Marlin in various flavours, T/C Contender Super 16 - ouch, and NEF Handi-Rifle) I have come to the conclusion that most folks tend to over-think the caliber, forgetting that somehow millions of bison bit the dust to the 500gr RN at circa 1100-1200 FPS.

I've had best success with the 400/405's, both cast and jacketed at around 1800 and can't imagine much in the North American context that would survive a properly applied dose of that medicine.

I do see application for the 300's for plinking, casual practice and such in the "express" realm, perhaps the coyotes would fit here. I've run them over 2000 but they're still not a real flat shooter.

Most recently I've been having a blast with the 500gr cast RN over small charges of fast powder for practically silent thumping of anything that requires it. As an interesting aside, a 500gr RN over 2.8 gr of 700X will not be stopped by 7 1 gallon milk jugs of water and all that with essentially the report of a. 22 Short...

Not sure if that answered any questions or just created more...


blake
 
mudgunner49 said:
Having shot the. 45-70 fairly extensively over the last 20 years (1886 Browning, H&R Shikari, Ruger Nos. 1&3, Marlin in various flavours, T/C Contender Super 16 - ouch, and NEF Handi-Rifle) I have come to the conclusion that most folks tend to over-think the caliber, forgetting that somehow millions of bison bit the dust to the 500gr RN at circa 1100-1200 FPS.

I've had best success with the 400/405's, both cast and jacketed at around 1800 and can't imagine much in the North American context that would survive a properly applied dose of that medicine.

I do see application for the 300's for plinking, casual practice and such in the "express" realm, perhaps the coyotes would fit here. I've run them over 2000 but they're still not a real flat shooter.

Most recently I've been having a blast with the 500gr cast RN over small charges of fast powder for practically silent thumping of anything that requires it. As an interesting aside, a 500gr RN over 2.8 gr of 700X will not be stopped by 7 1 gallon milk jugs of water and all that with essentially the report of a. 22 Short...

Not sure if that answered any questions or just created more...


blake
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blake, just a couple of questions.
What fast burning powder and how much, did you find that was accurate at 100 yards, in the order of 1,000 to 1,200 fps, with 400-420 grain bullets?
On your 2.8 grains of 700X, did you use a filler?
Bruce
 
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There is a lot to know about shooting cast bullets
The cast bullets book mentioned above
Cast boolits forum

Keep velocity down, leading is no fun to remove in my experience

405 grain cast bullets, like from bullet barn, at 800 to 900 FPS is lots of fun on a steel gong
Great practice too
Trail boss is great for this
 
H4831 said:
blake, just a couple of questions.
What fast burning powder and how much, did you find that was accurate at 100 yards, in the order of 1,000 to 1,200 fps, with 400-420 grain bullets?
On your 2.8 grains of 700X, did you use a filler?
Bruce
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Bruce

I've used 700X, 800X and Bullseye with 700X giving me the best accuracy so I focused on that for the majority of my testing (such as it was). With a Williams receiver sight on the Handi I can almost always keep 5/5 on an 8" plate at 100m but I have it sighted for 25m as that's as far as I can see in the yard when my deck light is on.

I use dacron for a filler with all of them, and a piece about 1 1/4" square works well. With the 405's I use 13gr TrailBoss to get to the 1050 FPS level and you can shoot those all day long...

blake
 
My plinking load is 12 gr of unique, with a 400-420gr cast bullet. If I remember its around 1000fps? pretty mild, like a .22. and it cloverleafs, @ 50 yards, peep sights. awful accurate.

A well made 400gr bullet either jacketed or hardcast at (1700-1800fps) or a 350gr Hornady (1900-2000fps) is a great killer on anything in NA. I use Jae Bok Young crater lite bullets 420 and 550gr grains. Speer 400gr at 1800fps are soft but great for 500lbs and less animals.
 
Hammell said:
My plinking load is 12 gr of unique, with a 400-420gr cast bullet. If I remember its around 1000fps? pretty mild, like a .22. and it cloverleafs, @ 50 yards, peep sights. awful accurate.

A well made 400gr bullet either jacketed or hardcast at (1700-1800fps) or a 350gr Hornady (1900-2000fps) is a great killer on anything in NA. I use Jae Bok Young crater lite bullets 420 and 550gr grains. Speer 400gr at 1800fps are soft but great for 500lbs and less animals.
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And even at 1000 FPS that 400 grained will go end to end through a 200# whitetail. Ask me how I know...
 
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