45-70 Loads

[saskgunowner101]

My plinking load is 12 gr of unique, with a 400-420gr cast bullet. If I remember its around 1000fps? pretty mild, like a .22. and it cloverleafs, @ 50 yards, peep sights. awful accurate.

A well made 400gr bullet either jacketed or hardcast at (1700-1800fps) or a 350gr Hornady (1900-2000fps) is a great killer on anything in NA. I use Jae Bok Young crater lite bullets 420 and 550gr grains. Speer 400gr at 1800fps are soft but great for 500lbs and less animals.

IIRC, my plinking load is 14 grains Unique with a 405 grain cast, and it's going around 1100 fps. If I was stand hunting where the shots were 100 meters or less, I wouldn't think twice about using it.

 

[brybenn]

I load a 405 gr bullet to 1550 fps with 49 grs of varget. Kills bears dead fast an leaves a big hole right thru. I think I'm going to switch powders and try for 1300 fps

If you want a dangerous game load buy a dangerous game gun. Not saying the 45/70 won't do but it doesn't need to be loaded to the max to get the job done. Momentum is a wonderful thing when talking about a large diameter bullet plowing thru bones and muscles

 

[22to45]

Not a lever action, and they will not go through a marlin, but a 500 grain cast bullet, the Lee one, with 53 grains of 3031 kick a lot in an 8 lb siamese mauser.. 1860 fps.... I could stand to cut back a grain or two...

 

[rhino62]

In my humble opinion your #1 load is completely unnecessary for anything in the wilds of Canada that may want to chew you up. Furthermore, the recoil in a guide gun will be so violent that for practical purposes you won't get a second shot away.
I can attest that an old, original Winchester 45-70 cartridge with a 405 grain bullet will penetrate at about a 45 degree angle, completely through a mature elk. And those bullets clocked at about 1400 fps.
My heavy hitting "defence" load would be a 400 to 420 grain load at a velocity that is easy to handle and can be shot rapidly with accuracy.

I think the original trap door Springfield loads would be adequate for most bears you are likely to encounter, also these loads are very pleasant to shoot in the Guide Gun.

 

[Hotwheels81]

IIRC, my plinking load is 14 grains Unique with a 405 grain cast, and it's going around 1100 fps. If I was stand hunting where the shots were 100 meters or less, I wouldn't think twice about using it.

Not should you, I dident think twice on this mulie, clean in and out with a nickle size hole thru her heart, 14ish grains of trail boss under a 405gr OMA hard cast, don't remember the range but 50-75ish yards rings a bell.... Lots of tastey tender steaks.

 

[H4831]

I've used 55gr of H4895 and the same of H4198 under a 300gr JHP and it's still within the range given for a level 2 load. I think my manual goes up to 57gr or something (don't have it handy but I do have a note in my load data records about 57gr loads). I can't see 54gr with a 330gr being unsafe (in a trapdoor, sure, but not a modern lever). If it was a 405gr or heavier that could be different.

In the August 2007 issue of Handloader, they did tremendous tests of the 45-70 in Marlin 1895 rifles. They fired some in four different 1895 rifles; one a 26" cowboy, two with 22 inch barrels and one guide gun, to see the diference in velocity. Then every round was pressure tested and chronographed in a 22 inch version.
They loaded in pressure groups, the first being nothing with pressure over 21,000 CUP. This was for the weaker actions, including the trapdoor.
The next was nothing over 28,000, then 35,000 and finally 43,000. They didn't recommend the 43,000 loading in the Marlin, yet they have all the speeds and pressures from 43,000 with the 22 inch Marlin!
Comparable with your load of 55 grains of H4895 and a 300 grain bullet, they show 52 grains of H4895 with a 350 grain Hornady flat point. And it is shown as under 21,000 CUP, which is the division suitable for the Trapdoor!

 

[LUTNIT]

Comparable with your load of 55 grains of H4895 and a 300 grain bullet, they show 52 grains of H4895 with a 350 grain Hornady flat point. And it is shown as under 21,000 CUP, which is the division suitable for the Trapdoor!

That's good to know, thank you. I don't usually load up 45-70's too much since I don't like beating myself up and I get bad headaches with high recoil if I shoot more than 10-20 rounds. Lately I've been shooting mostly black powder 45-70 loads in an H&R Buffalo Classic which are quite pleasant. Always love seeing the confetti from the paper patches flutter to the ground with each shot.

 

[H4831]

That's good to know, thank you. I don't usually load up 45-70's too much since I don't like beating myself up and I get bad headaches with high recoil if I shoot more than 10-20 rounds. Lately I've been shooting mostly black powder 45-70 loads in an H&R Buffalo Classic which are quite pleasant. Always love seeing the confetti from the paper patches flutter to the ground with each shot.

The last Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel I had I sold, because as few as five heavy loads would give me a headache. Not worth it.
Recently I got the chance to get a really nice 22 inch model, made in 1974, the second year that Marlin made the 1895 and couldn't resist!
I have quite a quantity of 420 grain bullets, all sized and lubed, so I will use them, but will keep the velocity sown to around 1250-1300. I've been trying that speed range out and they are comfortable to shoot, so will be fun.
By the way, a Limb Saver on the last rifle didn't effect getting a headache, one bit.

 

[bearhunter]

That's good to know, thank you. I don't usually load up 45-70's too much since I don't like beating myself up and I get bad headaches with high recoil if I shoot more than 10-20 rounds. Lately I've been shooting mostly black powder 45-70 loads in an H&R Buffalo Classic which are quite pleasant. Always love seeing the confetti from the paper patches flutter to the ground with each shot.

If you're getting a bad headache from shooting hard recoiling loads, you might want to visit an ophthalmologist. I had a good friend and hunting partner that liked heavy kickers. He always said "nothing to it" until the headaches. His doctor sent him to a specialist and the recoil generated had caused his lens on one eye to start separating.

 

[Longwalker]

^^^This^^^

I gave up on hotrodding the 45/70 in a guide gun .... All my 45/70 hunting has been done with 405gr Rem SP's ahead of 46gr IMR3031, a load from some Mike Venturino article in Rifle. Any number of cast bullet options would certainly work as well or better. The plinking loads a have all been trail boss and similar loads.

x2 - Exactly my experience and what i would recommend!

 

[jethunter]

I'm loading 415 gr cast to 1750 fps in a M1886 using IMR4198. Recoil is not so bad, because the rifle is 9.5 lbs with 26" barrel, and that softens the recoil remarkably compared to a 7 lb rifle.

 

[H4831]

^^^This^^^

I gave up on hotrodding the 45/70 in a guide gun after a wicked scope bite, I also shortly thereafter gave up scoping lever guns lol. Since then I've loaded hunting and plinking loads. All my 45/70 hunting has been done with 405gr Rem SP's ahead of 46gr IMR3031, a load from some Mike Venturino article in Rifle.

Do you know what velocity the 46 grains of 3031 gave the 405 grain bullet?
I just came back from the range, where I chronographed some 420 grain bullets with 40 grains of 3031.
They clocked quite evenly at around 1,200 fps.

 

[mudgunner49]

^^^This^^^

I gave up on hotrodding the 45/70 in a guide gun after a wicked scope bite, I also shortly thereafter gave up scoping lever guns lol. Since then I've loaded hunting and plinking loads. All my 45/70 hunting has been done with 405gr Rem SP's ahead of 46gr IMR3031, a load from some Mike Venturino article in Rifle.

Do you know what velocity the 46 grains of 3031 gave the 405 grain bullet?
I just came back from the range, where I chronographed some 420 grain bullets with 40 grains of 3031.
They clocked quite evenly at around 1,200 fps.

That sounds like good medicine for a whole bunch of stuff...

 

[Longwalker]

Bruce, here are my results with the Remington 405 gr.:
Factory load, 22" Blued JM stamped - 1180 FPS
43 gr. 3031 22" 1240 FPS
46 gr. 3031 22" 1480 FPS
and then the mystery - 46 gr. 3031, out of a new Remlin 18" GG stainless 1570 FPS.
Perhaps the new rifle has a tighter bore? Darned if I know. I'd like to do some more chronograph work when it warms up.

 

[H4831]

Thanks for the info, guys.
The 40 grains 3031 is a little light, because there was residue on the cases, indicating the case wasn't going out to properly seal the pressure. I thought I would up it a couple of grains.
In particular in loading light, it is often hard to duplicate what you did on another day.
A few years ago when I had my other Marlin 1895, I did a fair bit of testing for best 100 yard groups. One day I sat at my loading bench, wondering what to try. I have a quantity of 420 grain bullets, some flat base and some gas check. So thought I would make a test between the two, with a very light load. But what load?
I have the Lee box of yellow scoops, it was sitting open in front of me. I looked at the 1.6 gram scoop and thought, I bet that full of Unique would be a god load.
It turned out to hold 14 grains of Unique.
So I loaded five with the gas check bullets and five with the flat base.
I marked everything down in a note book, but now I can't find the note book! What I have said here is from memory, but I can't remember whether I used a filler, or not.
Anyway, here is the target of the ten. I shot the gas check first, circled a pen mark around them, then fired the five flat base.
The white inner mark on the target is a 2 inch square. You'll notice there are a couple of enlarged holes, where a double went in.
I was pretty thrilled, thinking the 1.6 gram scoop was the magic formula.
But I was later completely unable to repeat it! The next groups were never nearly as good!

 

[HuntAway]

^^^This^^^

I gave up on hotrodding the 45/70 in a guide gun after a wicked scope bite, I also shortly thereafter gave up scoping lever guns lol. Since then I've loaded hunting and plinking loads. All my 45/70 hunting has been done with 405gr Rem SP's ahead of 46gr IMR3031, a load from some Mike Venturino article in Rifle.

Do you know what velocity the 46 grains of 3031 gave the 405 grain bullet?
I just came back from the range, where I chronographed some 420 grain bullets with 40 grains of 3031.
They clocked quite evenly at around 1,200 fps.

In my 1895CB, 47 gr IMR3031 with a 405 Gr RSP will get right in the 1650 FPS range and is very accurate.

HA

 

[444shooter]

What powder(s) do you guys recommend with the 405gr cast for hunting loads (bear, elk)? Got some from Bullet Barn and want to try in my XLR.

 

[LUTNIT]

As I mentioned earlier (or was it a different thread? There's been a lot of 45-70 threads lately), I use a lot of 4198 for stouter loads. Have also used 4895 but you need more for the same velocities and I'm cheap so I stick with 4198.
H or IMR doesn't matter; there is data available for both depending on what you have.
I've swapped the two powders at starting loads many times without issue. Many people refuse, the choice is yours.

You can use any data for 400gr bullets as well since there aren't many level 2/lever loads using 405gr bullets. A 1.25% weight increase wont be noticed by the rifle, case, or powder.
Level 1/trap door loads will kill anything in North America. They were used on bison and the great bears for around a century. You can go for level 2 loads for more velocity if you want more insurance. The choice is yours.

 

[woodlotowner]

...and no one else uses RL-7?

 

[H4831]

What powder(s) do you guys recommend with the 405gr cast for hunting loads (bear, elk)? Got some from Bullet Barn and want to try in my XLR.

If you have 3031, some good loads have been quoted above, for you.
It looks like 47 grains would be about right for what you say you want, but just go up or down, to suit your desires.
I don't know another cartridge that so many different powders can be successfully used in, as a 45-70.
There are many rifle powders in roughly the same burning rate as 3031, so if you have a similar powder, such as 4320, 4895, varget, 4064, etc., just use what you have and start in the lower ranges of the quoted loadings for 3031 and go up until the recoil seems about right for you!