I quite enjoy shooting my Marlin GG in 45-70. Like so many have said, off the bench I'd rather shoot my 375 than it with hot loads, but it's a handy bush/free hand caliber that you can learn to shoot with confidence.
45-70 recoil
- Thread starter buzz720
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I'm not a fan of the Guide Gun, but then again, I don't enjoy being hurt by my rifle. To load this rifle to the power level I need is beyond my comfort level. This is from a guy who shoots heavily loaded .375 Ultras and .416 Rigby's from prone. The problem with the Marlin is the stock design, and the small lever opening. I had one of the early 22" 95 Marlins back in the '70s, and I recall this rifle was more pleasant to shoot than the Guide Gun, even with its plastic butt plate, although I seldom shot it while wearing a T-shirt. Pounder has a 95 with a long octagon barrel, which he fitted with a full length magazine and a big loop lever; this too is more pleasant to shoot than the guide gun. Even in full size dress, his 95 carries nicer than his big bore bolt guns, so one wonders what advantage the guide gun has when the heaviest loads are being employed.
Briefly I did too - mine had the pistol grip. The pistol grip I think is better for me to manage recoil. I use Marlins with both designs today but no 45s at present - just 35s.
Yep - the guide gun is the factory version of those cut down customs (Brockman etc). Yet the full dress 1895 is a nice handling rifle. But with its PG and bigger loop I guess the SBL will be too and better with recoil also - considering the OP's original question. Reviewers have commented on its "welcome" larger loop. But I'd lose the tacticool picatinny - not a fan. The price to buy a SBL is very high making other options look better.
Regards
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
I totally agree with your take on the stock design deficiencies of the guide gun. I'm using top end velocity jacketed reloads with bullets like the Hornady 350gr FP, Speer 400gr FN and the Remington 405gr FP. When I decided to get the Guide Gun, what I was looking for was something short, potent and weather resistant. The Marlin 1895 GS is all of that. Admittedly, while the recoil is 'substantial', the punishment for me comes from the straight stock design and matching lever.
I believe, much of the 'finger discomfort' could be eliminated with a pistol grip design, the same or similar to what's on my Marlin 444S.
Update
I feel like I should give an update. I decided on the Marlin 1895 sbl. I shot a box through it this afternoon. The Hornady Leverevolutions felt like nothing at all. I am definitely 210% satisfied with it
I would recommend this gun to anyone.
I feel like I should give an update. I decided on the Marlin 1895 sbl. I shot a box through it this afternoon. The Hornady Leverevolutions felt like nothing at all. I am definitely 210% satisfied with it
I would recommend this gun to anyone.
Factory load = soft, like a headbutt from a kitten.
Handloads = soft to heavy enough to press red "hickey" lines into your skin when the buttstock pushes clothing folds hard enough against you to draw blood into the skin. Not really a bruise. More of a gun hickey. It means the rifle likes you <3
The 45-70 is a very versatile cartridge. It can fire mellow loads like a 300 grain bullet sitting on a heap of trail boss. You'll get a very very soft kicking load that can still comfortably take deer within 100 yards. It can fire the same bullets much faster with a strong action and a much warmer powder load for a longer effective range and more power and effectiveness on bigger animals. Then it can fire 500 grain bullets (you can find them even heavier, like the 545 grain cast bullets) with anything from "slow push" to "why am I a foot behind where I was standing a half second before". Even with the mild loads, the really heavy bullets do not know how to stop moving.
There's no such thing as cover when you're shooting a 500 grain hardcast/solid. There's only concealment.
If you are used to stiff recoil, 45-70 is gentle to easily manageable. My handloads kick about like pulling both triggers on an 8 pound side by side 30-06.
The rifle is light, wood stock and steel buttplate, recoil energy 45ft-lbs at 20ft/s, where a single shot of 30-06 is just around 20ft-lbs at 16ft/s.
I picked up a butchered P14 for 125$ shipped, and had it rebarreled with an 18.5" and reworked to feed 45-70. Current load pushes a Speer 400gr JSP over a chronograph at 2050ft/s and hits 3.75" high at 100 yards, 3.75" low at 200. Not a bad MPBR for a 3800ft-lbs brush rifle, considering it has 100ft-lbs more power at 100 yards compared to a 308 Winchester at the muzzle! Good for any and every medium to large game within 200 yards and a bit more. Even when going really slow, these big heavy bullets will wallop a world of hurt on what they fall on.
7.5lbs for the whole rifle, really nice and handy to walk around with.
It's not that bad in terms of accuracy with the rather simple rear peep, front post and crude trigger.
Recoil is something you have to learn to absorb properly. For example, my boss bought an R93 in .300 RUM. He was trying to sight it in but after four or five shots, he puts it down and goes "It kicks so damn hard", revealing a bruised shoulder. My shooting buddy, who's been firing rather stout guns for over 30 years, proceeds to sight his rifle in, fire off the rest of his box for fun, and go to his .300 Weatherby and finish his load development that he was working on, another 50 rounds.
From the bench, you have to be even more careful about how you shoulder the rifle.
One of the most important things that I find makes a difference in how much you'll feel the recoil is the height of the gun on the bench compared to the height of the chair. For stout kicking rifles, I like the gun mounted so my back is straight and the rifle can be on the bench a bit higher up. I can tuck my right arm in and still have the elbow on the bench.
This does two things. Tucking your right elbow in (for me) puts more strong muscle in front of the bones. I've found this really cuts down on felt recoil - we all know how much a gun suddenly kicks harder when it's resting off a collar bone. Having a straight back puts less weight behind the gun, as if you were standing up. I'm not saying to "chick lean", don't get me wrong, you don't want to get pushed off balance and fall down. I'm saying to let the gun move you back as if you were shooting it standing. This imparts more energy in moving your body and less of it in compressing your shoulder.
You just have to practice moving things around. If one position hurts, move the stock a little on the shoulder. Raise or lower the rifle. Lean in or lean out a little. Just don't keep shooting in a position that's just feels like you're getting hammered. When you get to a position of body and rifle that feels better, remember it.
You may one day shoot stout recoiling rifles without much trouble.
Last, STOP SHOOTING IF YOU FEEL DISCOMFORT AND SHOOT SOME .22LR.
tl;dr put it in the right spot on your shoulder, FIRMLY against the meaty crook and let it show its affection. This is all of course only applicable if you don't have shoulder/back injuries and stuff. Also the small lever loop Marlins might bite you. You can get bigger loops like on that stainless, railed, XS sight marlin rifle, that should help.
Handloads = soft to heavy enough to press red "hickey" lines into your skin when the buttstock pushes clothing folds hard enough against you to draw blood into the skin. Not really a bruise. More of a gun hickey. It means the rifle likes you <3
The 45-70 is a very versatile cartridge. It can fire mellow loads like a 300 grain bullet sitting on a heap of trail boss. You'll get a very very soft kicking load that can still comfortably take deer within 100 yards. It can fire the same bullets much faster with a strong action and a much warmer powder load for a longer effective range and more power and effectiveness on bigger animals. Then it can fire 500 grain bullets (you can find them even heavier, like the 545 grain cast bullets) with anything from "slow push" to "why am I a foot behind where I was standing a half second before". Even with the mild loads, the really heavy bullets do not know how to stop moving.
There's no such thing as cover when you're shooting a 500 grain hardcast/solid. There's only concealment.
If you are used to stiff recoil, 45-70 is gentle to easily manageable. My handloads kick about like pulling both triggers on an 8 pound side by side 30-06.
The rifle is light, wood stock and steel buttplate, recoil energy 45ft-lbs at 20ft/s, where a single shot of 30-06 is just around 20ft-lbs at 16ft/s.
I picked up a butchered P14 for 125$ shipped, and had it rebarreled with an 18.5" and reworked to feed 45-70. Current load pushes a Speer 400gr JSP over a chronograph at 2050ft/s and hits 3.75" high at 100 yards, 3.75" low at 200. Not a bad MPBR for a 3800ft-lbs brush rifle, considering it has 100ft-lbs more power at 100 yards compared to a 308 Winchester at the muzzle! Good for any and every medium to large game within 200 yards and a bit more. Even when going really slow, these big heavy bullets will wallop a world of hurt on what they fall on.
7.5lbs for the whole rifle, really nice and handy to walk around with.
It's not that bad in terms of accuracy with the rather simple rear peep, front post and crude trigger.
Recoil is something you have to learn to absorb properly. For example, my boss bought an R93 in .300 RUM. He was trying to sight it in but after four or five shots, he puts it down and goes "It kicks so damn hard", revealing a bruised shoulder. My shooting buddy, who's been firing rather stout guns for over 30 years, proceeds to sight his rifle in, fire off the rest of his box for fun, and go to his .300 Weatherby and finish his load development that he was working on, another 50 rounds.
From the bench, you have to be even more careful about how you shoulder the rifle.
One of the most important things that I find makes a difference in how much you'll feel the recoil is the height of the gun on the bench compared to the height of the chair. For stout kicking rifles, I like the gun mounted so my back is straight and the rifle can be on the bench a bit higher up. I can tuck my right arm in and still have the elbow on the bench.
This does two things. Tucking your right elbow in (for me) puts more strong muscle in front of the bones. I've found this really cuts down on felt recoil - we all know how much a gun suddenly kicks harder when it's resting off a collar bone. Having a straight back puts less weight behind the gun, as if you were standing up. I'm not saying to "chick lean", don't get me wrong, you don't want to get pushed off balance and fall down. I'm saying to let the gun move you back as if you were shooting it standing. This imparts more energy in moving your body and less of it in compressing your shoulder.
You just have to practice moving things around. If one position hurts, move the stock a little on the shoulder. Raise or lower the rifle. Lean in or lean out a little. Just don't keep shooting in a position that's just feels like you're getting hammered. When you get to a position of body and rifle that feels better, remember it.
You may one day shoot stout recoiling rifles without much trouble.
Last, STOP SHOOTING IF YOU FEEL DISCOMFORT AND SHOOT SOME .22LR.
tl;dr put it in the right spot on your shoulder, FIRMLY against the meaty crook and let it show its affection. This is all of course only applicable if you don't have shoulder/back injuries and stuff. Also the small lever loop Marlins might bite you. You can get bigger loops like on that stainless, railed, XS sight marlin rifle, that should help.
unstableryan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Beautiful Okanagan Valley
I have Bob's book and I buy bullets from Ben and I chose the pistol gripped version on purpose. If I got the straight stocked guide gun, I would have then bought a new stock and lever to change it over. I figured 3 or 4 inches of barrel were no big deal and easier to lop off and refit he sight if I just needed to later.
I've just left it how I got it. I shoot it a lot and love this rifle. One of my friends bought one for a camp gun after experiencing mine and he already owns an 18" 870 for that purpose.
Full power loads with heavy hard cast are awesome and usually go about a foot and a half into dry fir firewood. I'm pretty sure that means also a bear lengthwise, but correct me if I am wrong. I tend to stay about 200 fps under maximum loads like Bob's and that's ok with me. The slightly lesser recoil and safety margin is good and I'm sure it would still kill about the same at 1600 than 1800 with a 480 or 500 flat nose.
The last batch of 500's were cast a little softer and expand to .7-.8" into firewood. I cant find enough softer media to test them properly. Probably take about 40 wet phone books. If someone is willing to help in the name of science... I'm there.
Anyways, perfect short range gun for making things stop doing what they are doing.
Now of course, for ####s and giggles, I also load a lot of 405gr ww alloy hollow base bullets and garrison round ball loads with pistol powder. They are like a .44 mag on steroids and kids can shoot them just fine. a 405 at 1200 is still a hell of a bullet.
I've just left it how I got it. I shoot it a lot and love this rifle. One of my friends bought one for a camp gun after experiencing mine and he already owns an 18" 870 for that purpose.
Full power loads with heavy hard cast are awesome and usually go about a foot and a half into dry fir firewood. I'm pretty sure that means also a bear lengthwise, but correct me if I am wrong. I tend to stay about 200 fps under maximum loads like Bob's and that's ok with me. The slightly lesser recoil and safety margin is good and I'm sure it would still kill about the same at 1600 than 1800 with a 480 or 500 flat nose.
The last batch of 500's were cast a little softer and expand to .7-.8" into firewood. I cant find enough softer media to test them properly. Probably take about 40 wet phone books. If someone is willing to help in the name of science... I'm there.
Anyways, perfect short range gun for making things stop doing what they are doing.
Now of course, for ####s and giggles, I also load a lot of 405gr ww alloy hollow base bullets and garrison round ball loads with pistol powder. They are like a .44 mag on steroids and kids can shoot them just fine. a 405 at 1200 is still a hell of a bullet.
unstableryan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Beautiful Okanagan Valley
P.S. I love that little rifle.. It's so wrong and so right at the same time.
Amazing to see so many comments about the recoil of the old 45/70. I'd agree with just about all the posts. Factory loads are similiar to a 12 ga. slug. However when loaded to the max, it will make you sit up and pay attention. Once sighted in, my hot loads are only used to kill big stuff so I really don't notice it. My hunting loads use a 350 gr. bullet at velocity similiar to the .450. Shot a moose last fall that was looking straight at me. Hit him in the centre of the chest and he turned broadside and I shot him again mid ribs. He went about 50 yards without a heart.
I should mention that my Marlin is not the short barreled Guide Gun. It is the longer barreled stainless with the laminated stock and it's one of the guns I don't intend to sell or trade no matter how crowded the safe becomes.
I should mention that my Marlin is not the short barreled Guide Gun. It is the longer barreled stainless with the laminated stock and it's one of the guns I don't intend to sell or trade no matter how crowded the safe becomes.
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NorthCoastBigBore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northwest BC (Rural) 103-I-##
Everything said above. My fav rifle & cartridge (once I fixed the feeding issues my particular Marlin had, hopefully yours is a little less trouble....). It carries great, I love the folding express sight especially in thick brush. Packing mine in the woods almost exclusively, I ripped off that wide scan hood in the first hour I had it out. As with anything hanging off you in the brush, it caught too many spruce branches and is somewhere north of Takla Lake now.
Absolutely agree the .45-70 is one of the most versatile cartridges out there, especially in the1895 (some debate out there whether a modern 1886 isn't slightly stronger but hey, the Marlin is a GREAT carry gun, lighter than an '86 - and plenty strong). Trapdoor loads for practice (~30 gr H4198 under a 405 gr LFP), I just shot 100 of them a last Monday night, won't say I wasn't sore the next day (first time I'd had it out for a few months anyway) but didn't feel it during the shooting. For grizzly country, well, you see lots of advice above. You'll figure it out. Happy shooting
Absolutely agree the .45-70 is one of the most versatile cartridges out there, especially in the1895 (some debate out there whether a modern 1886 isn't slightly stronger but hey, the Marlin is a GREAT carry gun, lighter than an '86 - and plenty strong). Trapdoor loads for practice (~30 gr H4198 under a 405 gr LFP), I just shot 100 of them a last Monday night, won't say I wasn't sore the next day (first time I'd had it out for a few months anyway) but didn't feel it during the shooting. For grizzly country, well, you see lots of advice above. You'll figure it out. Happy shooting
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I just jumped on this band wagon.
My first foray into a rifle with a big hole is a couple of pre Rem 1895GS's
The only load I have had availability too is 300g @1850 (on the box).
Reloading equipment onroute...
The platform is exactly what I needed and has exceeded my expectations at this time.
As such I expected a level of recoil; light rifle, heavy payload and high (ish) velocity will dictate this to happen.
While I understand I'm at the begining of this journey and have only used light loads, my response to the recoil is very positive. It pushes, and I'm sure with larger loads it will push harder but it doesn't sting like some light rifle (270-30 cal) magnum combo's I've been exposed to.
I love it.
My first foray into a rifle with a big hole is a couple of pre Rem 1895GS's
The only load I have had availability too is 300g @1850 (on the box).
Reloading equipment onroute...
The platform is exactly what I needed and has exceeded my expectations at this time.
As such I expected a level of recoil; light rifle, heavy payload and high (ish) velocity will dictate this to happen.
While I understand I'm at the begining of this journey and have only used light loads, my response to the recoil is very positive. It pushes, and I'm sure with larger loads it will push harder but it doesn't sting like some light rifle (270-30 cal) magnum combo's I've been exposed to.
I love it.
I am quite recoil tolerant, but have shot some 45-70 loads out of Marlin Leverguns that were rather unpleasant to shoot.
As has been mentioned, stock design contributes, but when driving heavy bullets at relatively stiff velocities, a byproduct is substantial recoil.
By working up to max loads, one can condition himself to the additional recoil.
Jumping right in may give you an unpleasant surprise!
Regards, Eagleye.
As has been mentioned, stock design contributes, but when driving heavy bullets at relatively stiff velocities, a byproduct is substantial recoil.
By working up to max loads, one can condition himself to the additional recoil.
Jumping right in may give you an unpleasant surprise!
Regards, Eagleye.
