45-70 reduced loads

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I'm specifically looking for reduced loads for 45-70 Gov. using Barnes 300gr.TSX FB The powders that I have are H4831 H4898 IMR 4831 IMR 4350 Win 760 and Unique I have their # 4 manual, but I don't have access to those powders and they look somewhat on the heavy side. I'm looking for the lowest starting loads for reduced recoil in a light rifle for informal target practise.
 
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is a great resource for this. I've substituted equal weight jacketed bullets for cast and made some really accurate reduced loads. I've never played around with solid bullets though.
All my lighter 45-70 loads are with cast bullets, not jacketed or premium bullets.
 
I was wondering about using data from cast bullets to jacketed bullets. I was thinking there might be pressure differences. So if I understand it right your saying cast/jacketed loads would be the same ? I've noticed in the Barnes #4 manual for instance two different 300gr bullets have starting loads 4.5 grs difference and max loads 3 grs difference. Maybe not much but that's just two jacketed bullets from the same manufactures. I would think there would be quite a jump from cast to jacketed. Although I would be using starting loads ???
LUTNIT said:
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is a great resource for this. I've substituted equal weight jacketed bullets for cast and made some really accurate reduced loads. I've never played around with solid bullets though.
All my lighter 45-70 loads are with cast bullets, not jacketed or premium bullets.
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I am using 350gn Plated RN Berry's with 15gr of Trail Boss for plinking.
The loads are quite accurate at 50m with a peep sight and are very low recoil.

You don't mention you have this powder but it's worth trying if you can find it.
 
got to go said:
I was wondering about using data from cast bullets to jacketed bullets. I was thinking there might be pressure differences. So if I understand it right your saying cast/jacketed loads would be the same ? I've noticed in the Barnes #4 manual for instance two different 300gr bullets have starting loads 4.5 grs difference and max loads 3 grs difference. Maybe not much but that's just two jacketed bullets from the same manufactures. I would think there would be quite a jump from cast to jacketed. Although I would be using starting loads ???
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A lead bullet will generally generate less pressure than a jacketed bullet of the same weight, all else being equal...
 
If you have unique, use it... 12-13 grains will be fun and in the low/middle of the range for you.

I have used 4 to 16gr of unique behind cast bullets 140-500gr to all kinds of positive effects. Being a barnes bullet though, I would shy away from the under 10-12 grain charges though, I bet it takes a bit more to push them out. Quickload was telling me me you could go much higher, but I would start at 12-13 and work up a grain at a time to the point you are looking for.

the other powders you have there seem pretty slow. 4198 is capable of some decently low charges.
 
For informal target practice I'd buy some cast 400 grain bullets and a pound of black powder. 100 rounds per pound of powder and easy on the shoulder. I wouldn't use a stout bullet like the TSX for farting around and to use them for hunting at low velocity would be a waste.

Cast is your friend.
 
Black powder needs to be compressed right ??? IIRC there are different burning speeds. This rifle is just a toy to fool around with.
 
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got to go said:
I was wondering about using data from cast bullets to jacketed bullets. I was thinking there might be pressure differences. So if I understand it right your saying cast/jacketed loads would be the same ? I've noticed in the Barnes #4 manual for instance two different 300gr bullets have starting loads 4.5 grs difference and max loads 3 grs difference. Maybe not much but that's just two jacketed bullets from the same manufactures. I would think there would be quite a jump from cast to jacketed. Although I would be using starting loads ???
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Cast bullet data is generally very low pressure but uses faster burning powders so there is no risk of a SEE. Yes you will get higher pressure with a jacketed load but you will still be well below even normal pressure.

I did kind of forget we where talking about a 45-70 though. The velocity limit for most cast bullets is around 2000-2200fps which is already near max pressure for a lever rifle in 45-70 and 300gr bullets. I shoot 300gr jacketed bullets at ~2400fps and am using lever rifle data and am near the max. For higher velocity cartridges, cast bullets reach their speed limit before the pressure limit so switching to jacketed and having a slight increase is still well below max pressure. That is how I got my .300WM shooting .308 velocities with nearly the same PoI and no pressure issues.

One advantage that Cast Bullet data has is it often includes powder choices not found in normal reloading manuals. One of my favourite target loads for 340gr cast bullets in a 45-70 for example is 16gr of Bluedot which is normally a shotgun/pistol powder. For whatever reason it works better than Unique in my Handi Rifle. It chronies ~1100fps if memory serves and has very mild recoil.

Unique almost always shoots more accurately than Trail Boss for whatever reason regardless of cast or jacketed bullets; at least for me. My 45-70 is, as far as I can remember, my only rifle that prefers Bluedot over Unique.

As was said above, if you use trap door data it will also be lower velocity and pressure.

I loaded up some .303 British with black powder but haven't gotten out to shoot them yet. I'm also going to be loading some 45-70 BP loads in the near future once I empty some of my brass. To get 70gr of BP into a 45-70 usually requires a special powder compression die in a press. What I did with the .303 loads that I was going to repeat for the 45-70 was to just fill the cases to loose capacity (about 50gr for the .303) and compress it by seating the bullet. BP does prefer at least a little compression to work best so you want to avoid any air space in the case. 50gr of FFg BP makes for a pretty light target load for 45-70 from my reading (under a 405gr cast bullet). I was going to be trying it under my 500gr spire points which was the later standard bullet weight for 45-70 so is still "traditional".

Oddly enough 70gr is also the traditional military load for .303 British. In order to compress it enough to get 70gr into a .303 case they compressed it into pellets and pressed them into the case before forming the neck.

Just remember that if you shoot BP you have different cleaning procedures for the rifle and also need to wash the brass cases in hot soapy water before reloading them to avoid the corrosive residue from BP eating the brass.
 
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Thanks. That's some great info LUTNIT Like I said earlier I have always stayed with published loads, but now I'm going to try some Trap Door loads with jacketed bullets.. I was looking at The Bullet Barn site and I think I'll try some of their 405 cast as well. I'm quite interested in using Unique and 2400 right now because I have a can of each sitting here. I doubt I'll try BP, just to much messing around. What would be the approximate velocity difference between cast and jacketed bullets using the same weight bullet and powder charge ?
 
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I like to use Trail Boss for my .45-70's (I have 3 single shots), but I found lighter loads did not produce good groups. You may find similar issues with other powders.
I'll watch this thread to see what you experience.
When I increased the charge of Trail Boss, (still within the safe range) I got much better results
If you haven't, I suggest you try TB as it is pretty good and I find it isn't too hard on the shoulder.
 
I have always found H4198 and IMR4198 to be my "go to" powders for the 45-70, 45-90 and 458 Win Mag - I've even used in the the 45 Colt.

From the lighest load to some teeth jarring ones, it has proven reliable and accurate.

I'd try the H4198 that you have in the 30.0 to 36.0 gr range. No need for fillers of any type.
 
I have shot with the Kid, and he knows his gun and Trail Boss!

I have had good luck with both Trail Boss and Varget under hard cast 405 gr Hollow base lead. The trail boss is a lot lighter recoil.

If you are looking for a really light plinker, I have also had some fun gallery loads with Trail Boss and a 45 cal round ball.
The Cold Lake Kid said:
I like to use Trail Boss for my .45-70's (I have 3 single shots), but I found lighter loads did not produce good groups. You may find similar issues with other powders.
I'll watch this thread to see what you experience.
When I increased the charge of Trail Boss, (still within the safe range) I got much better results
If you haven't, I suggest you try TB as it is pretty good and I find it isn't too hard on the shoulder.
Click to expand...
 
got to go said:
Black powder needs to be compressed right ??? IIRC there are different burning speeds. This rifle is just a toy to fool around with.
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No, just drop 65-70 grains of FFg through an aluminum or copper drop tube (helps it settle) and seat the bullet over top with a cardboard (cereal box, milk carton etc) wad.
 
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