I have a Browning 45-70 carbine with a carbine ladder rear sight. I would like to use a load that shoots where the sights are pointing. Tried a 405 gr cast bullet with 25 gr of 5744. This velocity for this load averaged 1244 fps and shot about 12 inches low at 100 yards. What would be the best way to get it shooting point of aim, changing bullet weight or bullet speed? I would like to take this gun hunting moose in a couple of weeks.
45-70
- Thread starter thrub
- Start date
Speed it up for a start. If this is a plain base bullet you may find accuracy falls off if you get too high. Think in terms of 1400-1550 FPS for starts. If it has a gas check you can push it till you can't stand any more recoil. Not only does increased speed flatten the trajectory but the muzzle rises more from recoil before the bullet has left the barrel.
If you want to stay with the load you have you can either find a spot on the ladder that raises your aim or consider installing a lower front sight which will also raise point of impact.
If you want to stay with the load you have you can either find a spot on the ladder that raises your aim or consider installing a lower front sight which will also raise point of impact.
The bullet I'm using is a plain base bullet. The rear sight has no elevation adjustment except on the ladder, which I think would be too slow for hunting in the bush. A tang sight would be nice, but I'm not sure where to find one that would fit an '86. The Brownings were not drilled for tang sights.
Nice gun!
The simplest is aim 12 inches higher!!!
Failing that I think that 405 grain bullet will need to reach 1500fps. Find a recipe to reach that 1500 fps and use a gas checked or a plated bullet.
I chased the POI and it was punishing, now I just aim 5" higher. 500 grain bullet at 1200fps.
The simplest is aim 12 inches higher!!!
Failing that I think that 405 grain bullet will need to reach 1500fps. Find a recipe to reach that 1500 fps and use a gas checked or a plated bullet.
I chased the POI and it was punishing, now I just aim 5" higher. 500 grain bullet at 1200fps.
The original poster may be making the wrong assumption here, you sight the gun in by using the ladder for elevation changes, drift rear sight for windage. Once your sights are right on for whatever distance you want, YOU THEN LEAVE THE SIGHTS ALONE, you don't change it for diff. elevations when a shot occurs in the bush. You would only change the elev. on the ladder when re-sighting it in due to change of ammo, etc. Some of us try to get fancy and have the open rear sights(ladder type) sighted in for say 50yds. and the tang rear sight for 100 or 150 yds....giving you a choice in sights depending on distance of shot.
If I was tonight the gun in by using the ladder sight, it would mean that before shooting I would have to flip the sight up and adjust the slider before every shot. That to me seens very slow. If I had a load that shot point of aim it would be quick for close range. The slider could then be used for longer ranges when you usually have more time. This is one of the Brownings that was made in the early '90's so any grinding on the front sight is a last option as the gun is in like new condition. The slider on the rear sight would never stay in one spot on the ladder, especially when wandering around in the bush or even sliding in and out of a rifle case.
Here is the straight goods, meaning I am not guessing at anything, or repeating someone's pet theory.
For starters, a 405 grain 45-70 bullet travelling from very low speed, like 11-1200 fps and the same bullet travelling at 1700 fps, will have a poi at 100 metres difference of about nine inches.
If you want to use the popular bullet weight of 405 grains, or thereabouts, which is a good idea, then use it, loaded to the velocity you want.
Sight it in, the way you want it sighted, about on, or slightly high, at 100.
Using your open sights, adjust the notched elevating bar. If it won't come out right, sight it in the notch that is higher than you want, then file that notch down until it shoots where you want it to shoot.
After you have it sighted in, do not change your sights. Period.
One other thing. Flat base bullets will shoot in your 45-70 at considerably higher velocities than you have been told.
For starters, a 405 grain 45-70 bullet travelling from very low speed, like 11-1200 fps and the same bullet travelling at 1700 fps, will have a poi at 100 metres difference of about nine inches.
If you want to use the popular bullet weight of 405 grains, or thereabouts, which is a good idea, then use it, loaded to the velocity you want.
Sight it in, the way you want it sighted, about on, or slightly high, at 100.
Using your open sights, adjust the notched elevating bar. If it won't come out right, sight it in the notch that is higher than you want, then file that notch down until it shoots where you want it to shoot.
After you have it sighted in, do not change your sights. Period.
One other thing. Flat base bullets will shoot in your 45-70 at considerably higher velocities than you have been told.
Bruce, I was trying to say the same thing but does this rifle have some kind of "flip up" barrel sight, like the Buffington? When I talk about ladder, I'm talking about the little piece of notched steel that fits into the opening at the bottom of most factory sights, but the OP may be talking about something diff......Ben
Bruce: Agreed a flat base can be pushed faster. But it isn't clear if the bullet is a flat base or a bevel base. If it's a bevel base it may take some testing to see what it will withstand without gas cutting.
The standard open sight adjustment is done with a sight elevator. A ladder sight is a different kettle of fish.
The standard open sight adjustment is done with a sight elevator. A ladder sight is a different kettle of fish.
Slooshark1
CGN frequent flyer
I have the same rifle that I bought from another CGNer and he had the front blade replaced with a silver blade. I have the original front blade but am quite happy with the silver one. It shot right on when I tried it. I would not frig around filing anything on that rifle.
I can't see any need for a factory jacketed bullet with the 45-70 and Marlin rifle.
The Hodgdon data gives 43 grs. of 4198 with a 400 grain bullet, for a 1,866 fps.
I have shot 43 of 4198 with a 420 gas check and made a five shot group of just over an inch, with 4 well under the inch.
I used 45 grs. of 4895 with a flat base 420 and made a five shot 1.25 inch group.
Some of those loads were as heavy as I want to load.
Factory loads are expensive, but I tried some and didn't make as good groups as I make with cast.
The Hodgdon data gives 43 grs. of 4198 with a 400 grain bullet, for a 1,866 fps.
I have shot 43 of 4198 with a 420 gas check and made a five shot group of just over an inch, with 4 well under the inch.
I used 45 grs. of 4895 with a flat base 420 and made a five shot 1.25 inch group.
Some of those loads were as heavy as I want to load.
Factory loads are expensive, but I tried some and didn't make as good groups as I make with cast.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Using cast I've had some very good results with a 405gr BB bullet in light loads and have also done reasonably well in heavier loads using Dougs 420gr GC cast bullet. However, using the hotter loads that a modern Marlin like my 1895GS is capeable of handling, top end loads using the 405gr Remington or 400gr Speer is where my accuracy and performance really shines. I have a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 that I now save my cast bullet shooting for.
Even with hard cast bullets, which I like sized 0.001" - 0.002" over bore diameter, once I get over about 1300 f/sec, accuracy seems to drop off. For me that is.
I get great accuracy with most of my .45 bullets, for the Marlin most of the bullets are gas checked except a 500 gr. LFN which I've pushed to 1700fps. The 480gr., 465gr., 420gr., 400gr.HP 340gr.HP, 325gr.WFN Hammer, are all gas checked and the heavier ones have been pushed to 1900fps, the 325gr. to 2200 fps, all with good accuracy, and the only reason I have to reduce a load is due to recoil. Lyman shows plain base cast bullets to over 2000fps. without leading. I absolutely would not use a) Bevel base bullets b)bullets cast too hard c) bullets cast too small for your barrel....any of these will cause leading and inaccuracy...IMHO
I'm shooting flat based bullets. When i say a ladder sight I mean a flip up staff on the barrel with a slider on it. There are no notches for it to click in to. Lots of winchester carbines had sights similar to this one. When folded down there is a nonadjustable notch for sighting. I figured it would be set up for a certain weight bullet at a certain speed. I don't need this gun to be exactly point of aim but I do need minute of moose. I don't want to be goofing with the sight when a moose comes through the trees.
OK, I think the ladder sight you refer to is like the sight on my Springfield Trapdoor. When you flip it up, The ladder can be slid up, then locked at your sighting. So every time you flip it up, your sighting appears.
Maybe yours is different.
In any case, the notch that sits there is usually well within minute of moose ribs. If it is out too much, I would just note where it hit in relation to aiming, then hold high or low when a requirement for a quick shot came along.
Johnn, I was just telling someone today, about the good 405 grain bevelled base bullets you so graciously sent me. I shot them at lower speed, but they were very accurate. When this talk of bevelled base maybe not taking as high a speed, I looked and I still have five of your originally sent bullets. I will load them up quite stiff and see what they do.
About your guide gun not doing to well with cast at higher speed, I was wondering. By any chance does your rifle have micro groove rifling? I thik the early ones did have, before they went to Ballard type.
