45-90 Smokeless

[Meph]

Hello everyone, I'd like to find smokeless powder loads of the 45-90 for a 300, 400 and 500 grain bullet, JSP, JHP or solid, with a max pressure of about 50 000 PSI. I've already got all the loading info for the 45-70, but I haven't been able to find much about the 45-90.

Will be loaded in a P14, and what I understand is that it's got a strong action as it could take the 30-06 (in the p17, but the difference in action strength between the two were minimal, so it's pretty much the same deal) giving me a safety overhead of 8000PSI even before getting to an overpressure (30-06 having a max pressure of about 58 000PSI)

 

[Andy]

There are lots of published 458 Win Mag loads. The 458 Win Mag has about 5% more capacity than the 45/90 (and feeds a lot better from a mag).

Use 458 Win Mag 45K CUP or psi loads, or reduce 458 Win Mag 50K loads by 5%. This will put you very close to, but not over 50K psi.

 

[senior]

I wouldn't run pressures anywhere near that high.
Enfield is an old gun & 45-70-90 cases are not as strong as .458WM IMHO.
I would work up a load very carefully with 4198 & stop when the shoulder hurts

 

[Meph]

I wouldn't run pressures anywhere near that high.
Enfield is an old gun & 45-70-90 cases are not as strong as .458WM IMHO.
I would work up a load very carefully with 4198 & stop when the shoulder hurts

The P14/P17s could take 303 to 30-06. 30-06 runs pretty high pressures, and their actions is very meaty and thick. The action alone weighs many pounds, it's very strong. They can take much more than lever actions, and lever actions can push a 400gr at 1950ft/s from a short barrel - now imagine having a bigger case, one could get more velocity with the same pressures and that's JUST at lever action loads!

 

[gunlaker]

Get the Lyman's 49th manual they show loads for smokeless in .45-90, although only cast bullets IIRC.

Chris.

 

[Meph]

Get the Lyman's 49th manual they show loads for smokeless in .45-90, although only cast bullets IIRC.

Chris.

Yeah, probably all for old 45-90 trapdoor shooters using like Trailboss 'cause it's cleaner...

I'm probably going to do the near-minimum 458 powder loads.

 

[senior]

The P14/P17s could take 303 to 30-06. 30-06 runs pretty high pressures, and their actions is very meaty and thick. The action alone weighs many pounds, it's very strong. They can take much more than lever actions, and lever actions can push a 400gr at 1950ft/s from a short barrel - now imagine having a bigger case, one could get more velocity with the same pressures and that's JUST at lever action loads!

1919-1920s era 30-06s were not the 50,000 pressure 06s we see today. More like lower end 40,000 pressures that the era gun was designed in. Winchester made 1895s Levers in 30-06 but are subject to bolt set-backs if using continued high pressure modern 06 rounds. Bigger case does not equal more pressure handling capabilitys it equats more powder capacity.
How do I know this????
I have been shooting and loading for yrs the most beautiful Siamese Mauser 45-70 you'll likely ever see. While powder capacity is at it's limit in that case for a .45 cal bullet, my opinion is so is the old bolt gun and the case.
A heavy compressed load of 4198 results in a 300gn bullet propelled at approx 2350fps, my opinion is that's absolute max in my gun & should be in yours to. Thats way more than enough to blow up ground hogs with 300gn HP varmint bullets & hurts the shoulder even with my 25" one inch dia hex barrel, yes my gun is heavy, to the tune of an estimated 13-14lbs, but the weight does help to keep the scope away from critical areas of my body

Poor pic but compared to my 280

 

[Andy]

There are those who just can't accept a 45/90 being run with anything but blackpowder, or if with smokeless, at higher than blackpowder pressures.

The P14 and P17 (Enfield Model of 1917 for those who might get upset about that term), have been rechambered to high pressure magnum cartridges for 90+ years. I and thousands of others have a 300 Win Mag based on a P17 that I routinely run at 60K psi. I have a M98 mauser in 458 Win Mag Improved - again, no problem, and I consider the P14/P17 stronger. Some will still disagree, and then we will have to listen to the Eddystone warnings, etc........

Starline 45/90 brass can handle 50K psi, and the P14 action is more than capable.

Load it up and prove them wrong.

 

[H4831]

Yes, you just load it up and show those panzies what a real rifle will do. I mean after all, what does Parker Ackley know about such things!
Here is the report of P.O. Ackley on his results of purposely blowing up military actions.

 

[Andy]

Yes, you just load it up and show those panzies what a real rifle will do. I mean after all, what does Parker Ackley know about such things!
Here is the report of P.O. Ackley on his results of purposely blowing up military actions.

Post an extract from an old book to shut down the conversation? No context, no explanation, nothing - just evoke the name of a Gun God and that's that. You know much better than that. I have the book, but much better than that, I presented facts and logic.

We're talking 50K psi. Should we all stop shooting our P14's and P17's? Should all of those P14/P17 sporters in 300 Win Mag, 375 H&H and other magnum cartridges have a gunsmith's tag applied to them immediately stating "It's dangerous"?

I expect just about anything here, but not that from you.

 

[gunlaker]

Yeah, probably all for old 45-90 trapdoor shooters using like Trailboss 'cause it's cleaner...

I'm probably going to do the near-minimum 458 powder loads.

That's a foolish assumption. Why bother asking if you are not interested in getting answers?

FYI, they do show loads with 535gr bullets @ 1700 fps, and 400gr @ 1950fps.

Now maybe that's not enough for you, fair enough, but it's certainly more than a Trailboss load.

Chris.

 

[ben hunchak]

The top end loads talked about may be accurate enough and worthwhile when using Jacketed bullets, but I'm thinking that accuracy may fall off before then if using cast bullets. Only one way to tell, Load 'em up, let 'em rip, Lord hates a coward.

 

[H4831]

Now Andy, don't get in a dither, I respect your opinions very much and I have said so on these threads.
However, I think the thread was being carried far enough that people were getting complacent about these "strong," P17 Enfield actions. Maybe that was an old book I copied from, but it was P.O. Ackley's experiments and after all, it is these very old actions we are talking about.
As Senior said, the old military loadings for the 30-06 were mild, compared to modern loadings. As an example, the official US military load in WW1 for their rifles was a 150 grain fmj bullet at 2700 feet per second. In the house I grew up in an older brother had a wooden case, which once contained 1200 of these cartridges, five to a clip and a great many clips done up in a canvas type belt to throw over the shoulder for carrying. It stated very plainly on the box, "150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second." As a boy i thought, wow, that is sure a powerful shell, because most people had a 30-30 and they were always quoted as being 2200 fps with the 170 grain bullet.
If one just takes a P17 action and builds a custom rifle on it, unless he has it properly tested for hardness, how does he know he is not dealing with a very brittle one like Ackley picked at random for testing blow up strength?
Certainly, any of them would handle the low pressure used in WW1 ammunition that they were designed for.
And Andy, I was also very surprised to hear you give such a great endorsement for the P17 action, with no disqualifier.
I will stick with my descission to quote from Ackley's "old book," to let people know that a P17 action could be very dangerous at pressures of little more than todays ratings for high pressure cartridges.

 

[Andy]

Well I did some gardening and then had a nice cold Rickard's White. That should have gotten my knickers out of their knots and the sand out of my mangina, but I still stand by what I said (but not perhaps the way I said it).

I would never recommend anything I would not put my own face 6" away from.

 

[ben hunchak]

Well I've had alot of things 6" away from my face that I wouldn't recommend to anyone!

 

[Meph]

Now Andy, don't get in a dither, I respect your opinions very much and I have said so on these threads.
However, I think the thread was being carried far enough that people were getting complacent about these "strong," P17 Enfield actions. Maybe that was an old book I copied from, but it was P.O. Ackley's experiments and after all, it is these very old actions we are talking about.
As Senior said, the old military loadings for the 30-06 were mild, compared to modern loadings. As an example, the official US military load in WW1 for their rifles was a 150 grain fmj bullet at 2700 feet per second. In the house I grew up in an older brother had a wooden case, which once contained 1200 of these cartridges, five to a clip and a great many clips done up in a canvas type belt to throw over the shoulder for carrying. It stated very plainly on the box, "150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second." As a boy i thought, wow, that is sure a powerful shell, because most people had a 30-30 and they were always quoted as being 2200 fps with the 170 grain bullet.
If one just takes a P17 action and builds a custom rifle on it, unless he has it properly tested for hardness, how does he know he is not dealing with a very brittle one like Ackley picked at random for testing blow up strength?
Certainly, any of them would handle the low pressure used in WW1 ammunition that they were designed for.
And Andy, I was also very surprised to hear you give such a great endorsement for the P17 action, with no disqualifier.
I will stick with my descission to quote from Ackley's "old book," to let people know that a P17 action could be very dangerous at pressures of little more than todays ratings for high pressure cartridges.

Even if it was in the pressures of 303 and mild 30-06, those pressures were high depending of what you compare it with.

The manufacturer of the action played a great deal with the actions' heat treatment, Remington and Winchester being always good and Eddystone being "sometimes wonky". On top of that, I've seen a few P14s and P17s, the actions are VERY thick and heavy. It's a massive chunk of steel. I bought a Remington made one and I can have it looked at by a good gunsmith to see how good the heat treat is, even if I'm confident it's fine.

The top end loads talked about may be accurate enough and worthwhile when using Jacketed bullets, but I'm thinking that accuracy may fall off before then if using cast bullets. Only one way to tell, Load 'em up, let 'em rip, Lord hates a coward.

Will be using jacketed bullets. Might be firing a bit of lead but mostly low power plinking stuff.

That's a foolish assumption. Why bother asking if you are not interested in getting answers?

FYI, they do show loads with 535gr bullets @ 1700 fps, and 400gr @ 1950fps.

Now maybe that's not enough for you, fair enough, but it's certainly more than a Trailboss load.

Chris.

My mistake, I had read that the 45-90 was not a SAAMI cartridge with smokeless apart from the BP equivalent so no book really had high power loads out for it. Also, those are very very heavy loads. Looking at Hodgdon right now and the 458 is EASILY 300ft/s UNDER those loads for those bullet weights. Winchester magnum, not Weatherby magnum!

 

[gunlaker]

My mistake, I had read that the 45-90 was not a SAAMI cartridge with smokeless apart from the BP equivalent so no book really had high power loads out for it. Also, those are very very heavy loads. Looking at Hodgdon right now and the 458 is EASILY 300ft/s UNDER those loads for those bullet weights. Winchester magnum, not Weatherby magnum!

Yeah, they are a little higher than most would try with cast bullets, especially as most of those bullets are plain base rather than gas checked. Maybe that'll give you a starting point with jacketed though. Tricky I suppose, as there aren't much for pressure signs even at those velocities.

There used to be a number of people working with Rugers and the longer .45 cal cartridges. I wonder if any of them have pressure tested data for the .45-90 and jacketed bullets?

Chris.

 

[Meph]

Yeah, they are a little higher than most would try with cast bullets, especially as most of those bullets are plain base rather than gas checked. Maybe that'll give you a starting point with jacketed though. Tricky I suppose, as there aren't much for pressure signs even at those velocities.

There used to be a number of people working with Rugers and the longer .45 cal cartridges. I wonder if any of them have pressure tested data for the .45-90 and jacketed bullets?

Chris.

I still wouldn't push jacketed (what I'll be shooting) from my gun at more than factory/slight low power load of the 458 Win Mag. Gonna buy a bunch of speer 400gr JSP and they have a jacketed base and all, they're great bullets, and a few 500gr solids for ####s and giggles. Practice ammo will likely be a box of store bought 45-70 here and there (for brass) and maybe some lead but not loaded hot.

 

[senior]

I still wouldn't push jacketed (what I'll be shooting) from my gun at more than factory/slight low power load of the 458 Win Mag.

That sounds diff from what I initially thought you were doing.
factory/slight loads will be very easy to duplicate.
You should be able to come with-in 50-100fps of published max loads with a full case of 4198 & a 300gn bullet. In my gun I start to loose out to the 458 as soon as I go to bigger bullets, in order to cycle in my gun the longer heavier bullets can not be set out much & take up to much powder capacity.

Also watch closely for pressure signs, they are hard to see in straight cases!

 

[Meph]

That sounds diff from what I initially thought you were doing.
factory/slight loads will be very easy to duplicate.
You should be able to come with-in 50-100fps of published max loads with a full case of 4198 & a 300gn bullet. In my gun I start to loose out to the 458 as soon as I go to bigger bullets, in order to cycle in my gun the longer heavier bullets can not be set out much & take up to much powder capacity.

Also watch closely for pressure signs, they are hard to see in straight cases!

It's that I'll be shooting mostly the heavier bullets, so I don't want to be loading them TOO hot, even if there's a good amount of room in the P14 action. Light bullets should be flying nicely though.