I think you may have answered your own question when you said we were a British colony at the time,and let's not forget there was an issue of sovrienty involved too when the "Red Coats" were sent west. Part of the reason they were sent in the first place was to keep it Canada.
45 Adam's revolver
- Thread starter gregs5190
- Start date
Well, as mentioned in my posts above, all of Canada's primary-issue military handguns, and most Mounted Police sidearms except the first two (i.e. the Adams and the Enfield) have indeed been American designs ... mainly for the reasons you suggest, in my opinion: i.e. proximity, availability, etc.
The Adams revolver was "state of the art" when adopted by the NWMP - nothing from the US was really "superior". The .476 Enfield was a case unto itself - although they were trying to achieve a robust, powerful revolver, it didn't really work out in practice. However, that hadn't become apparent until after it was adopted by the Mounted Police.
At any rate, British revolvers were designed to meet British preferences, and the British in fact considered them superior to American designs. The great majority of Canadian military and police "decision makers" were British, or at least of British descent, and thus shared the same viewpoint.
(As for other, slightly later British designs - in particular the top-break, double-action Webleys, which Canada never did adopt - I have no hesitation in saying that in my view the various ones I own are decidedly preferable to the Colt, Remington and S&W revolvers of the same vintage that I also own and shoot. In fact, my antique .455/.450 Webley "W.G." revolver is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot, and has the nicest trigger pull and action by far. Colt and Remington single action revolvers are notoriously slow to empty of spent cases and reload, by the way - I can have a top-break Webley fully reloaded and back in action in 1/3 of the time, at most, that it takes to empty and reload such a single-action revolver.)
The British from the earliest days of the revolver preferred double action or trigger cocking revolvers for military and civilian use. The Colt SAA was a slow seller in Britain and one of the reasons for the development of the DA M1878 was the UK market.
What makes you think the Colt, Remington and S&W were superior to the Webley, Tranter, Adams etc????? Probably "Umurikan" TV ads that say "we are the best". Other than fantasized history of the American west, the Webley and Tranter probably had a more illustrious career in one week on the Indian frontier than all the hype of the Colt in the American west in 10 years. My 2 cents worth...
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Last edited:
Well the S&W were Quick to Reload they used the Break open action like the Webleys.
Tho i think the Webley MKI latch and 1889 WG latches were way stronger than the S&W
The S&W is a sleek smooth action killing Machine and sould not be lumped in with the slower Colts and Remingtons
My WG is HUGE compared to my S&W DA but the S&W shoots just as Accurate is just as fast to Load is Lighter faster to Draw.
I can pack any gun i want in the bush now and only two guns do i bother with my Webley MKII** with a 6 inch barrel (its like a MI Tank)
Or my S&W DA model 3 5 inch barreled gun. Lighter faster and as accurate as a WG.
Hey i like both guns but dont compare a S&W to a SAA Colt for slow loading.
Tho i think the Webley MKI latch and 1889 WG latches were way stronger than the S&W
The S&W is a sleek smooth action killing Machine and sould not be lumped in with the slower Colts and Remingtons
My WG is HUGE compared to my S&W DA but the S&W shoots just as Accurate is just as fast to Load is Lighter faster to Draw.
I can pack any gun i want in the bush now and only two guns do i bother with my Webley MKII** with a 6 inch barrel (its like a MI Tank)
Or my S&W DA model 3 5 inch barreled gun. Lighter faster and as accurate as a WG.
Hey i like both guns but dont compare a S&W to a SAA Colt for slow loading.
And by that time, the British had already got a taste of simultaneous-extraction revolvers with very strong and secure break actions (something the early S&W top-break models weren't renowned for, by the way, so Britons had no reason to buy many S&W's). Accordingly, they also "stayed away from the Model 1878 Colt in droves", so to speak, both because the 1878 DA Colt doesn't have a particularly secure cylinder locking system, and because it must still be unloaded and loaded one round at a time through a side-gate, just like the single action model. A Webley dumps all empties at once, and is also much faster to reload ....
1914 - 5,000 commercial-production .45ACP "Government Model" pistols (i.e. the Model 1911)
1915-1916 - 14,500 Smith & Wesson 'Hand Ejector' revolvers, chambered in .455
1939-1943 - over 118,000 S&W 'Military & Police' revolvers, chambered in .38 S&W
To paraphrase what somebody in the British Empire said many years ago: "The Colt may have won the American West, but the Tranter, Adams and Webley won all the rest!"
Last edited:
In spite of their merits once loaded, I find significant problems with both the Webley mark VI and the Webley Pryse when shooting black powder. Fowling tends to gum up the locking system and make both difficult to securely latch shut. That is not a problem when shooting smokeless or the smokey smokeless black powder substitutes but remember the basic system was originally designed in the days of black powder.
A Colt SAA or a Webley model 5 may be slow to reload but they do not jam up the same way.
cheers mooncoon
A Colt SAA or a Webley model 5 may be slow to reload but they do not jam up the same way.
cheers mooncoon
To paraphrase what somebody in the British Empire said many years ago: "The Colt may have won the American West, but the Tranter, Adams and Webley won all the rest!" [/QUOTE]
Well the Webley i would agree but i had two Adams Revolvers a MKII and a MKIII and talk about cylinders not locking up good. They were OK when fired but the Cylinder can move around the rest of the time.
I would take a SAA Colt over any Adams Revolver any day.
I think the Remington 1875 is the best SA Solid frame pre 1898 gun made tho!
Thats off topic tho as they were not used by Canada im pretty sure.
Just saying there way Better than any Adams ive had.
The Remys and SAA colts have a very good Stop notch set up to Keep the Cylinder from rolling about.
How many guys here have or shoot a SA Remy 1875
There Very solid like a Webley Army express but with a EX Locking bolt to hold the cylinder perfect in place all the time.
Smooth action to.
For fast reloading the Webs are great and there Latch system is way Stronger than the S&W tho i agree 100% with that.
[/QUOTE]Well the Webley i would agree but i had two Adams Revolvers a MKII and a MKIII and talk about cylinders not locking up good. They were OK when fired but the Cylinder can move around the rest of the time.
I would take a SAA Colt over any Adams Revolver any day.
I think the Remington 1875 is the best SA Solid frame pre 1898 gun made tho!
Thats off topic tho as they were not used by Canada im pretty sure.
Just saying there way Better than any Adams ive had.
The Remys and SAA colts have a very good Stop notch set up to Keep the Cylinder from rolling about.
How many guys here have or shoot a SA Remy 1875
There Very solid like a Webley Army express but with a EX Locking bolt to hold the cylinder perfect in place all the time.
Smooth action to.
For fast reloading the Webs are great and there Latch system is way Stronger than the S&W tho i agree 100% with that.
Last edited:
Well the mkVI came on the scene well after smokeless was an established propellant and no one has ever claimed the pryse type lock was either robust or immune from fouling.
The mI-MKVI lock mechanism simpley has nothing about it that would increase the tendancy of fouling to retard lock up. with a hand on the butt and one on the barrel you'd have to be pretty weak to not get that gun closed no matter what! (A 6 inch and a 3 inch lever)
MAYBE if you have a loose lockup to begin with you could feel some resisitance, but when the latch tolerances are as spec'd the webley is pretty much self cleaning.
That being said you shoud sell that mkvi to me cheap so I can restore it's self esteem LOL
Last edited:
Very interesting discussion!
One thing that present-day black powder shooters tend to forget (if they ever even knew) is that most modern black powders are really nothing more than fine-grained blasting powder. Top quality British sporting powders of the Victorian era, made with the best hardwood charcoal and other top-quality ingredients, are reputed to have produced much less fouling than today's stuff does .....
Dingus: I shoot a brace of repro Model 1875 Remington revolvers in Cowboy Action (when I'm not shooting my Colt SAA clones or Ruger New Vaqueros, that is.) All of them are chambered in .45 Colt, as I subscribe to the view that unless it starts with at least .4 it just ain't a real caliber!
One thing that present-day black powder shooters tend to forget (if they ever even knew) is that most modern black powders are really nothing more than fine-grained blasting powder. Top quality British sporting powders of the Victorian era, made with the best hardwood charcoal and other top-quality ingredients, are reputed to have produced much less fouling than today's stuff does .....
Dingus: I shoot a brace of repro Model 1875 Remington revolvers in Cowboy Action (when I'm not shooting my Colt SAA clones or Ruger New Vaqueros, that is.) All of them are chambered in .45 Colt, as I subscribe to the view that unless it starts with at least .4 it just ain't a real caliber!
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
...snip....To paraphrase what somebody in the British Empire said many years ago: "The Colt may have won the American West, but the Tranter, Adams and Webley won all the rest!"
For fast reloading the Webs are great and there Latch system is way Stronger than the S&W tho i agree 100% with that.[/QUOTE]
My "friendly" local S&W collector dragooned me into "cleaning & cataloging" his collection.
In my not so humble opinion, the best S&W top break was the 2nd Model Schofield.
Unfortunately, Messers S&W didn't want to pay Schofield royalties for his (very) improved ejector system & latch. This is why they continued with the system where the hammer actually acts as part of the barrel lock.
eltigra306
Member
- Location
- Saskatchewan
I see that I have touched off a quick descusion on the merrits of all the older British and US design's. As for myself If I was offered a choice back in the day It for sure would not have been a Colt ssa, or a New Army Reminton for there speed of loading and unloading. As for the British revolvers I don't have a lot of experiance with them other than the Webley Mark VI that I recently traded for something that I could acually get ammo for, I would have chosen the S&W Model3 it is in my mind the most apealing gun of the ara to look at and the design was as fast as it could get at the time.
My reason for righting the last post was to get the history of the desision and I think I have pretty much gotten that and I am intreaged at all the other opinions that were raised. As for the some of the remarks related to my ?, It was just a ? and if you think that I am influenced by the Amaerican designs how could I not be. I am 31 years old and have loved the western movie ever since I can remember. So yes the colt peacemaker and the walker colts the remingtons and the far underused/rated S&W Model 3 have a big impression on my ideas of what the proper choice of a revolver might have been. But I am so into all thing related to firearms, the more I read the more I know and grow to repect and love the quirky designs that have come from across the pond.
If you read this and think that I am upset, That is not right I just thought that I needed to explain where I was comming from in my statement.
My reason for righting the last post was to get the history of the desision and I think I have pretty much gotten that and I am intreaged at all the other opinions that were raised. As for the some of the remarks related to my ?, It was just a ? and if you think that I am influenced by the Amaerican designs how could I not be. I am 31 years old and have loved the western movie ever since I can remember. So yes the colt peacemaker and the walker colts the remingtons and the far underused/rated S&W Model 3 have a big impression on my ideas of what the proper choice of a revolver might have been. But I am so into all thing related to firearms, the more I read the more I know and grow to repect and love the quirky designs that have come from across the pond.
If you read this and think that I am upset, That is not right I just thought that I needed to explain where I was comming from in my statement.
Eltigra;
I too love the American single-action revolver designs, and I own and shoot modern 'clones' of both the 1873 Colt and 1875 Remington. One of the main reasons for the strong appeal of Cowboy Action Shooting (including the many participants living outside the USA) is that fascination with the American Old West (both fact and fiction) largely attributable to Western movies and television shows. Indeed, I often liken the sport to "grownups dressing up and playing 'Cowboys and Indians' with real guns" .... though, of course, we don't shoot at one another. SASS (the Single Action Shooting Society) recognizes the strong movie influence by allowing shooters' personas to be either "Historical" or "Hollywood" .... or, as it is sometimes put, you can depict a "real cowboy" or a "reel cowboy". (Mind you, another nice thing is that you don't actually have to be a "cowboy" - after all, there were lots of other walks of life in the Old West, and eventually you'll likely see someone portraying every one of them! Rather more "all-encompassing" terms for the sport are "Western Action Shooting" or even "Frontier Action Shooting" ....)
However, SASS permits the use of single-action revolvers only .... and it must be remembered that the S&W Model No. 3 (and the Schofield variant) were also single-action, which is why modern 'clones' are now available. As already noted, back in the latter half of the 19th Century, the British had developed a decided preference for double-action revolvers. The much smaller National Congress of Old West Shootists (NCOWS), to which I belong, permits the use of any handgun design which was in common use in or before 1899. In shoots held under NCOWS rules, there are accordingly lots of 'period correct' double-action revolvers in use.
I normally use a good, top-break, double-action Webley revolver in events sponsored by the Grand Army of the Frontier (GAF) - which are shot under NCOWS rules. GAF is an organization which beautifully combines my two primary passions: 19th Century military history/re-enactment and frontier action shooting. Although "non-military" shooters are encouraged to participate in the "Scout" class, GAF is geared toward competing in a historically correct Victorian-era military persona using firearms appropriate to that impression. Rather than the "four gun" (two pistols, pistol-caliber lever-action carbine and shotgun) battery of firearms normally used in SASS and NCOWS, participants in GAF events are limited to one pistol and a rifle, which is certainly more in keeping with military usage. There is even provision for shooting in categories where only a single firearm is used, such as "Staff Officer" (handgun only) and "Infantry" (mil-spec rifle only).
For chuckles, here are some pics of me participating in GAF events -
As an 1890's Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch) officer -
In my 1885 North-West Rebellion Queen's Own Rifles of Canada persona -
This was a delightful "amphibious assault" scenario, in which each participant fired from the moving boat at a series of gongs on the shore. The fellow with me (dressed as a Spanish-American War U.S. Marine) joked that, despite having been in the Marine Corps for real for 20+ years, this was the first time he had ever had to shoot from a boat!
I too love the American single-action revolver designs, and I own and shoot modern 'clones' of both the 1873 Colt and 1875 Remington. One of the main reasons for the strong appeal of Cowboy Action Shooting (including the many participants living outside the USA) is that fascination with the American Old West (both fact and fiction) largely attributable to Western movies and television shows. Indeed, I often liken the sport to "grownups dressing up and playing 'Cowboys and Indians' with real guns" .... though, of course, we don't shoot at one another. SASS (the Single Action Shooting Society) recognizes the strong movie influence by allowing shooters' personas to be either "Historical" or "Hollywood" .... or, as it is sometimes put, you can depict a "real cowboy" or a "reel cowboy".
(Mind you, another nice thing is that you don't actually have to be a "cowboy" - after all, there were lots of other walks of life in the Old West, and eventually you'll likely see someone portraying every one of them! Rather more "all-encompassing" terms for the sport are "Western Action Shooting" or even "Frontier Action Shooting" ....)However, SASS permits the use of single-action revolvers only .... and it must be remembered that the S&W Model No. 3 (and the Schofield variant) were also single-action, which is why modern 'clones' are now available. As already noted, back in the latter half of the 19th Century, the British had developed a decided preference for double-action revolvers. The much smaller National Congress of Old West Shootists (NCOWS), to which I belong, permits the use of any handgun design which was in common use in or before 1899. In shoots held under NCOWS rules, there are accordingly lots of 'period correct' double-action revolvers in use.
I normally use a good, top-break, double-action Webley revolver in events sponsored by the Grand Army of the Frontier (GAF) - which are shot under NCOWS rules. GAF is an organization which beautifully combines my two primary passions: 19th Century military history/re-enactment and frontier action shooting. Although "non-military" shooters are encouraged to participate in the "Scout" class, GAF is geared toward competing in a historically correct Victorian-era military persona using firearms appropriate to that impression. Rather than the "four gun" (two pistols, pistol-caliber lever-action carbine and shotgun) battery of firearms normally used in SASS and NCOWS, participants in GAF events are limited to one pistol and a rifle, which is certainly more in keeping with military usage. There is even provision for shooting in categories where only a single firearm is used, such as "Staff Officer" (handgun only) and "Infantry" (mil-spec rifle only).
For chuckles, here are some pics of me participating in GAF events -
As an 1890's Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch) officer -
In my 1885 North-West Rebellion Queen's Own Rifles of Canada persona -
This was a delightful "amphibious assault" scenario, in which each participant fired from the moving boat at a series of gongs on the shore. The fellow with me (dressed as a Spanish-American War U.S. Marine) joked that, despite having been in the Marine Corps for real for 20+ years, this was the first time he had ever had to shoot from a boat!
Speaking of "Hollywood" .... they do actually sometimes get things right in the movies. The 1966 production "Khartoum" depicts the events in 1885 leading up to and during the months-long siege of Khartoum in the Sudan, in which the city was ultimately taken by the Mahdist rebels, and its Egyptian Army garrison under British General Gordon slaughtered, just two days before a British relief expedition arrived.
Here a couple of "screen captures" of the late, great Charlton Heston as General Gordon during a skirmish with Mahdists part-way through the film. Although not the best images, he is clearly armed with a "period-correct" .476 Enfield revolver:
Here a couple of "screen captures" of the late, great Charlton Heston as General Gordon during a skirmish with Mahdists part-way through the film. Although not the best images, he is clearly armed with a "period-correct" .476 Enfield revolver:
Last edited:
