45 colt

[sharp shooter]

I have a first generation SAA 1873 colt peacemaker made in 1877. 10-X ammo is not cheap an I want to reload for it. What components do I need. I don't plan to shoot it a lot. T 10-X ammo doesn't fly too straight fyi.

What weight of bullets and powder should I use?

 

[LUTNIT]

If it's a black powder frame I'd stick with black powder personally. I believe some were rehardened and considered safe for the early smokeless rounds. It'll likely be able to shoot light CAS loads but there's no way to tell for how long with a revolver that old. It might work indefinitely or the frame may start stretching or weakening.

If I were going to shoot it I'd use FFFg black powder with soft lead (maybe 20-1 alloy) 250gr cast. Check around for how much powder others use but honestly I doubt you can get enough in the case to cause an issue. The old balloon-head cases had more internal capacity at the cost of much weaker case heads so modern solid-head cases wont hold as much powder.

I'd be likely to keep it as a collectors piece and pickup a cheap Pietta as a shooter. Use smokeless loads to your hearts content in those (just not the Ruger-only loads).

 

[jethunter]

You need to load within the BP pressure limits. I use cast bullets and Unique powder for a 13,000 psi load.

 

[Edenchef]

My loadout for CAS shooting is light, as required by SASS rules. It is 25 gn of FFFg Goex, Holy Black under a lubed felt wad and a 250 gn lead RNFP lubed bullet. For a hotter load, use 32 gn, without the lube wad, under the same lubed bullet. IMHO, you will have a lot of fun with the lighter load and it will be much easier on the gun. But do try Black Powder, it's much more authentic and OMG the smoke, the flame! Just adds so much to the experience. Shoot me a PM if you need more help.

 

[fingers284]

If it's a black powder frame I'd stick with black powder personally. I believe some were rehardened and considered safe for the early smokeless rounds. It'll likely be able to shoot light CAS loads but there's no way to tell for how long with a revolver that old. It might work indefinitely or the frame may start stretching or weakening.

If I were going to shoot it I'd use FFFg black powder with soft lead (maybe 20-1 alloy) 250gr cast. Check around for how much powder others use but honestly I doubt you can get enough in the case to cause an issue. The old balloon-head cases had more internal capacity at the cost of much weaker case heads so modern solid-head cases wont hold as much powder.

I'd be likely to keep it as a collectors piece and pickup a cheap Pietta as a shooter. Use smokeless loads to your hearts content in those (just not the Ruger-only loads).

Very good post Lut.

Personally I think the chances of a 1877 frame being re- hardened would be slim at best and more probably non-existent. Some of the frames in the 165-180,000 range (circa. 1898) already in the system were factory smokeless hardened. They were BP frames in the system during the changeover to smokeless guaranteed guns (guaranteed #180,000 or later). The only chance this one had to be a smokeless frame is if it was returned to the factory, not a very high probability for a run of the mill commercial sales gun back then.

I agree with Jet also, but with this gun I would be a little extra cautious for two reasons, the .45 cylinder is the thinnest of all and by the time an "oops" shows up its too late to back up time and a $5000 antique is a boat anchor. A lot of posts in this forum ask how much they will save by re-loading...in this case, with one slip-up, it could very well end up being a "how expensive is it going to be to reload" nightmare.

BP with a "soft" cast boolit for me.

 

[Edenchef]

Very good post Lut.

Personally I think the chances of a 1877 frame being re- hardened would be slim at best and more probably non-existent. Some of the frames in the 165-180,000 range (circa. 1898) already in the system were factory smokeless hardened. They were BP frames in the system during the changeover to smokeless guaranteed guns (guaranteed #180,000 or later). The only chance this one had to be a smokeless frame is if it was returned to the factory, not a very high probability for a run of the mill commercial sales gun back then.

I agree with Jet also, but with this gun I would be a little extra cautious for two reasons, the .45 cylinder is the thinnest of all and by the time an "oops" shows up its too late to back up time and a $5000 antique is a boat anchor. A lot of posts in this forum ask how much they will save by re-loading...in this case, with one slip-up, it could very well end up being a "how expensive is it going to be to reload" nightmare.

BP with a "soft" cast boolit for me.

Very good advice Fingers, I agree completely.I have a couple antiques myself and would not risk them by trying to load a 'low pressure smokeless load", too many possible places to screw up, then 'gun go boom.' Stick to real Black Powder, very hard to overload, you just can't fit enough powder in to get into trouble. About the only way to have a problem is if you allow an airspace between the powder and the bullet. That's fairly easy to check for, just give the cartridge a good shake, if it rattles it's not safe. Also the lubed felt wads do a great job taking up the space in light loadings.

 

[jethunter]

I think people should do what they think they are competent at doing. As for overloading with smokeless - yes, it is very possible to overload an antique and just as possible to overload a modern firearm when using pistol powders. I am confident in my ability, knowledge, and checks. So anyone who isn't confident in their abilities should stay away from smokeless in most of these old guns.

Chances are that these old pistols have had more smokeless shot through them than BP, and there is no solid technical reason not to use smokeless powder, seeing as factory smokeless has been used in them for well 100 years... so it's not a question of "is smokeless SAFE in my gun?", it's actually a question of: "AM I SAFE ENOUGH to load smokeless powder in my gun?"

 

[dogzilla]

Trail boss should be fine. That just spits out mouse farts for cowboy stuff

 

[LUTNIT]

Trail boss should be fine. That just spits out mouse farts for cowboy stuff

Trail Boss can be wonky. It often produces higher pressure for a given velocity compared to normal pistol powders. This is especially true in bottle-neck rifle cases but still shows up in straight-walled pistol cases.

 

[sharp shooter]

Thanks for all the help gents. I'm in no rush, i'll get my hands on some triple F and get some lubed bullets. What primers would I need?

I only shoot the gun a couple times a year. It's fun, you can see the lead fly through the air with that 10-x ammo. What kind of powder would be in that?

 

[BCRider]

Just regular large pistol primers sets off black powder easily.

The 10-X ammo is likely just soft loaded cowboy action loads done with some generic smokeless powder. No way to know what they use or if they use the same powder for every batch. More than likely they switch powder and just use the right amount to achieve the desired muzzle velocity.

For an antique of this sort I'd second Edenchef's recipe for 25gns and a lube wad. Or if you can't find the wads then use a small amount of filler to take up the space.

IT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT THAT THERE BE NO AIR GAP ! ! ! ! !

You must load the cases so that the bullet seats with some light to firm compression on the powder and anything else that is in the case. Black powder demands this. If you leave an air gap at all when the powder starts to burn it will jump up and all the powder burns at once instead of a controlled burn. And when that occurs you get a serious pressure spike. A small gap won't result in turning the gun into a pipe bomb. But even a small gap will spike the pressure higher than normal and prove to be hard on the gun over the long haul if you shoot a lot of such loads. So be sure that the height of the powder along with any wad or filler you use is such that when you seat the bullet that it will compress the fill by about 1.5 to 2mm worth. If anything err on the side of a little more compression.

The 25gns of black behind a 200 or 250 gn lead pill will give you a pretty firm push. It will very likely feel a lot stronger than the 10-X ammo you have been shooting. But you'll quickly find out that it is more a shove than a smack. And there's the magic of why black powder was able to be used safely in the old steels and even cast iron guns of the day.

If you go with a filler instead of a lube wad then use a cereal such as Cream Of Wheat or oat bran. Just measure out the filler with a dipping scoop and add it over top of the black powder. Then seat the bullet directly onto the filler.

You can also use Pyrodex P which is a loose powder and a direct replacement for proper black powder. There is also 777. But 777 is a bit more energetic than black or Pyrodex so you'll want to use a smaller charge. Both Pyrodex and 777 still demand that you have no air gap. So a filler or wad is still needed with a reduced charge.

All of these are hard on your brass for stains. So wash the brass that evening.

The fouling from all of these powders also tends to attract moisture and causes rust if left for long. So you want to clean the gun the same day as you shoot it. The good news is that with the thru holes it's super easy to clean the barrel and cylinder and wipe off the frame and recoil shield.

One other factor if you shoot black powder or Pyrodex loads. The fouling does not mix well with petroleum based gun oils. Produces a nasty sticky tar like mess in fact. You want to switch to an oil which is more compatible with the BP fouling. And that would be Ballistol. Use it for lubricating the bore, chambers, cylinder, base pin, ejector and protecting the exterior of the gun. Regular gun oil is OK for inside the action as little fouling gets in there. But if you have the Ballistol right there anyway you may as well do it all with the one oil.

A 25gn load of proper black powder is going to be fun to shoot but won't be a strain to the gun since it was normally used with a load of closer to 33 to 35gns of black powder. So you may find that you get the ol' girl out to play a lot more often.

 

[gunlaker]

Although I don't shoot an original, but a Ruger New Vaquero, I can say that 30gr of FFg and a soft cast 250gr bullet lubed with SPG is a lot of fun to shoot. Much more than using Unique, but that can be enjoyable too.

Chris.