I have a Uberti 45 LC SAA and I have been loading 250 g campro plated bullits and trail boss powder . I'm wondering if I could try some black powder with these bullits and if so is there anything I should be careful of? What type of black powder? How much? Anything else I should know ?.. Thanks
45 LC and black powder?
- Thread starter Brianma65
- Start date
I use black powder in my Ruger.. I don't think that a copper plated will work properly.. A lead bullet with a good bp lube to keep the fowling soft.. Remember to compress bp.. FFFg for powder... How much that would be depend on what bullet used as how far it is seated
It's rare that I've seen lead bullets with black powder lube for sale at retail. Most people I talk to who don't cast their own buy prelubed (smokeless) cast bullets, stick them in an oven with paper towels to melt the smokeless lube off, and then relube them either with the pan lubing technique or with a lubrisizer if they have one. There are many recipes for easily home made black powder lube and tutorials for pan lubing if you do some Google searches. I use a paraffin wax and Vaseline lube for my black powder rifle loads and it works very well. It's technically a smokeless lube but it leaves the fouling really soft and easy to remove. Most black powder lubes will use bees wax (softer than paraffin) and either lanolin oil, tallow, lard, or some other animal fat/oil (don't use butter; it contains too much water).
For black powder rifle I also find it's a lot cleaner if I use a duplex charge. It's easy with a big .45-70 case but I don't know anything about duplex charges in pistol cartridges. A dupluex charge is a small amount of a fast smokeless powder (most pistol or shotgun powders will work) over the flash hole and the rest of the case filled with black powder. I usually use 5-6gr of IMR4227 or 800X. Since all black powder loads are compressed (if yours aren't, you aren't loading black powder correctly), the smokeless powder is held against the flash hole and doesn't move around in the case. I only use duplex loads in modern firearms, not antiques, but that's just me.
Also I find it fairly common for people, even the staff in stores, to have no idea what I mean when I ask if they have "real black powder". The only black powder I know of that's approved by NRCan is GOEX (though I do want to try some Swiss if I ever find any). When I ask for black powder or ask muzzle loader shooters if they are using "real black powder" I often get a "yes" followed by the presentation of a can of a black powder substitute (Pyrodex, Jim Shockey Gold, Blackhorn 209, etc.). The substitutes are a little cleaner but can be more temperamental with when they will produce decent accuracy or consistent velocity.
*edit*
Forgot to say, if you haven't found a local retailer that sells real black powder already, you may have to search around a bit. It is classified as an explosive where as smokeless powder is a propellant (highly flammable, not explosive) so black powder has stricter storage regulations for retailers. Many retailers wont stock it because of the added storage regulations. Most black powder substitutes count the same as smokeless so they are much more common. The store I buy mine at has it stored in a dedicated shed on the edge of the property away from the main buildings. It's out in the woods as well so the edge of the property is the edge of a forest; not a high density residential/commercial area.
In terms of storage requirements for private individuals, there are just limits on how much you are allowed to have which is less than smokeless. You don't need to store it outside or anything.
For black powder rifle I also find it's a lot cleaner if I use a duplex charge. It's easy with a big .45-70 case but I don't know anything about duplex charges in pistol cartridges. A dupluex charge is a small amount of a fast smokeless powder (most pistol or shotgun powders will work) over the flash hole and the rest of the case filled with black powder. I usually use 5-6gr of IMR4227 or 800X. Since all black powder loads are compressed (if yours aren't, you aren't loading black powder correctly), the smokeless powder is held against the flash hole and doesn't move around in the case. I only use duplex loads in modern firearms, not antiques, but that's just me.
Also I find it fairly common for people, even the staff in stores, to have no idea what I mean when I ask if they have "real black powder". The only black powder I know of that's approved by NRCan is GOEX (though I do want to try some Swiss if I ever find any). When I ask for black powder or ask muzzle loader shooters if they are using "real black powder" I often get a "yes" followed by the presentation of a can of a black powder substitute (Pyrodex, Jim Shockey Gold, Blackhorn 209, etc.). The substitutes are a little cleaner but can be more temperamental with when they will produce decent accuracy or consistent velocity.
I found that to be true when using only Lee alox but when I used alox coated bullets in addition to a lube cookie under the bullet with a fibre wad on the powder, it was actually cleaner than the black powder lube alone.
*edit*
Forgot to say, if you haven't found a local retailer that sells real black powder already, you may have to search around a bit. It is classified as an explosive where as smokeless powder is a propellant (highly flammable, not explosive) so black powder has stricter storage regulations for retailers. Many retailers wont stock it because of the added storage regulations. Most black powder substitutes count the same as smokeless so they are much more common. The store I buy mine at has it stored in a dedicated shed on the edge of the property away from the main buildings. It's out in the woods as well so the edge of the property is the edge of a forest; not a high density residential/commercial area.
In terms of storage requirements for private individuals, there are just limits on how much you are allowed to have which is less than smokeless. You don't need to store it outside or anything.
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I am shooting almost exlusively black powder in my Uberti 1873 clones since 6-7 years.
First, my recipe: 255 grains "big lube" bullets (they have a very deep lube groove) that i cast and lube myself with a mix of crisco, beewax and olive oil. I use 30 grains of Goex (FFg works well, but i found that FFFg burn cleaner and get maybe some 25 fps extra). I also put a vegetal fiber wad between the powder and bullet to get a better seal in my rifles (not necessary for pistols but i like it in the rifles). Any primer brand worked well so far. That is getting me ok for a full cowboy action match, no problem.
Second: forget about getting 40 grains of Goex in a 45 colt case. It was easy a 125 years ago when case had "baloon" head. You can probably do it, but you will as much fun with 30-35 grains.
Third: if you use commercial cast bullets, the "hard" lube can make quite a mess and foul up your pistol. For a few rounds, no problem. What i used to do, before casting my own, was melting away the hard lube and relubing with my own stuff.
Some good ressources: http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html and http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm
You can also consider using Triple 7, it's easy to clean and don't need lube so it's a good way to enter the dark side!
First, my recipe: 255 grains "big lube" bullets (they have a very deep lube groove) that i cast and lube myself with a mix of crisco, beewax and olive oil. I use 30 grains of Goex (FFg works well, but i found that FFFg burn cleaner and get maybe some 25 fps extra). I also put a vegetal fiber wad between the powder and bullet to get a better seal in my rifles (not necessary for pistols but i like it in the rifles). Any primer brand worked well so far. That is getting me ok for a full cowboy action match, no problem.
Second: forget about getting 40 grains of Goex in a 45 colt case. It was easy a 125 years ago when case had "baloon" head. You can probably do it, but you will as much fun with 30-35 grains.
Third: if you use commercial cast bullets, the "hard" lube can make quite a mess and foul up your pistol. For a few rounds, no problem. What i used to do, before casting my own, was melting away the hard lube and relubing with my own stuff.
Some good ressources: http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html and http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm
You can also consider using Triple 7, it's easy to clean and don't need lube so it's a good way to enter the dark side!
Black powder produces white smoke, not black.
Trail Boss shouldn't be compressed where as black powder should be. So watch for that.
Trail Boss can deliver black-powder-like velocities without the mess as it's a smokeless powder.
No matter what type of powder you use, you will need bullet lube for cast lead. What kind of lube you use just depends on the kind of powder. An unlubed lead bullet will almost guarantee leading in your barrel which can be difficult to clean out.
Trail Boss shouldn't be compressed where as black powder should be. So watch for that.
Trail Boss can deliver black-powder-like velocities without the mess as it's a smokeless powder.
No matter what type of powder you use, you will need bullet lube for cast lead. What kind of lube you use just depends on the kind of powder. An unlubed lead bullet will almost guarantee leading in your barrel which can be difficult to clean out.
I've used berrys and the lead bullits from higgesons . I think they were lubed. Another type of lead bullit I used had a blue ring around them and had a thick wax like substance on them which I'm guessing is lube. So what's the reason for using Black powder verses smokeless powder? I thought the big clouds of black smoke and the fireballs were the attraction of the black powder. I guess I'll have to google it some.
I have lubed hard cast commercial 200 gr 44-40 bullets with SPG and loaded them with 30 grs of FFg.
After a couple of SASS stages, I couldn't hit 16" x 16" targets at 25 yds. The bore was so crudded up it was ridiculous. My own alloy cast bullets with same allow me to shoot an entire day without cleaning the bore.
After a couple of SASS stages, I couldn't hit 16" x 16" targets at 25 yds. The bore was so crudded up it was ridiculous. My own alloy cast bullets with same allow me to shoot an entire day without cleaning the bore.
Mean Steak
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central Alberta
The attraction to using Black Powder is the boat load of smoke, the smell of sulfur and the satisfaction of reloading the original way.
You should also google or youtube the proper way of cleaning a firearm that shoots black powder. It involves hot water and soap as well as you cases.
You should also google or youtube the proper way of cleaning a firearm that shoots black powder. It involves hot water and soap as well as you cases.
I reload all of my 45LC for my H&R Handi Rifle with Tripple 7. When you reload you must make sure there is no air space when the bullet is seated. My common load is 40gr. by volume/ 230gr jacketed round nose bullet. I use FFG and FFFG. I also add a grease ( olive oil/ beese wax, 50/50) to the base of my bullets for easier cleaning with a over power card.
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There's a whole mess of conversions when you look at substitutes as well.
Black powder is commonly loaded "by volume" and not weight. So if you set a powder measure to "40 grains" by volume it should, in theory, drop 40 grains by weight (technically mass). Every measure I've tried has been fairly close, usually +/- 5%, so it's good enough for such a crude propellant as black powder. Substitutes are often meant to be measured by "equivalent volume of weight" or "equivalent weight volume" which is not a real measurement. What they mean is that the volume that holds 40 grains of black powder should be used when measuring the equivalent powder charge of "40 grains" of the substitute. The actual weight could be anywhere from 25 grains to 55 grains depending on which substitute you're using but it's the equivalent volume of around 40 grains of real black powder.
Most long range BPCR guys I've talked to in person or online load all their black powder rifle cartridges with a scale using actual weight. Volume equivalent is good enough when in the bush or the mountains and you're shooting at maybe a hundred yards or two but for the 1000yd guys, it's precision weighed charges.
Then there's the extremely dangerous people who don't know this and weigh out charges of substitute without referring to any weight ratios or other data. They assume 100 grains (muzzle loading rifles) of black is the equivalent of 100 grains of substitute on a scale; not by volume. A "100 grain by volume" charge of a substitute may only weigh 60-70 grains on a scale. One guy I've seen at my local range weighs out 100 grains of substitute on a scale for his rifle which has a listed max charge of 100 grains of black powder. That much substitute is probably the equivalent of a 120-140 grain charge of black powder but he refuses to see it any other way. He let me fire one of his muzzle loaders before I knew exactly what he was doing and the recoil was immense. It far surpassed anything my Lyman muzzle loader recoils with 110gr charges of real black. I have no idea how far over pressure he was but he's essentially proofing his barrel with each shot.
There are ratios to use when using a scale and measuring substitutes by actual weight instead of volume. So it'll be something like 1 grain of X substitute on a scale is equal to 1.25 grains of real black powder. The ratio is used when measuring with a scale; a volumetric measure is used when measuring by volume.
Also remember that Trail Boss is not a black powder substitute. It's a smokeless powder that needs to be treated as such.
Black powder is commonly loaded "by volume" and not weight. So if you set a powder measure to "40 grains" by volume it should, in theory, drop 40 grains by weight (technically mass). Every measure I've tried has been fairly close, usually +/- 5%, so it's good enough for such a crude propellant as black powder. Substitutes are often meant to be measured by "equivalent volume of weight" or "equivalent weight volume" which is not a real measurement. What they mean is that the volume that holds 40 grains of black powder should be used when measuring the equivalent powder charge of "40 grains" of the substitute. The actual weight could be anywhere from 25 grains to 55 grains depending on which substitute you're using but it's the equivalent volume of around 40 grains of real black powder.
Most long range BPCR guys I've talked to in person or online load all their black powder rifle cartridges with a scale using actual weight. Volume equivalent is good enough when in the bush or the mountains and you're shooting at maybe a hundred yards or two but for the 1000yd guys, it's precision weighed charges.
Then there's the extremely dangerous people who don't know this and weigh out charges of substitute without referring to any weight ratios or other data. They assume 100 grains (muzzle loading rifles) of black is the equivalent of 100 grains of substitute on a scale; not by volume. A "100 grain by volume" charge of a substitute may only weigh 60-70 grains on a scale. One guy I've seen at my local range weighs out 100 grains of substitute on a scale for his rifle which has a listed max charge of 100 grains of black powder. That much substitute is probably the equivalent of a 120-140 grain charge of black powder but he refuses to see it any other way. He let me fire one of his muzzle loaders before I knew exactly what he was doing and the recoil was immense. It far surpassed anything my Lyman muzzle loader recoils with 110gr charges of real black. I have no idea how far over pressure he was but he's essentially proofing his barrel with each shot.
There are ratios to use when using a scale and measuring substitutes by actual weight instead of volume. So it'll be something like 1 grain of X substitute on a scale is equal to 1.25 grains of real black powder. The ratio is used when measuring with a scale; a volumetric measure is used when measuring by volume.
Also remember that Trail Boss is not a black powder substitute. It's a smokeless powder that needs to be treated as such.
If you do get some proper black powder as mentioned do not leave an air gap.
I know from shooting my cap and ball .44's that a round ball sitting in front of 30gns of fffg is a lot of fun. And that tells me that a 240 grain bullet, which is a lot heavier than a round ball, in front of 35 to 40 grains of ffg is going to be a lot funner
But for some folks that may be a little strong.
If you try the full loads of black which are correctly compressed and find they are a little stout for your tastes then load up a bit less black powder but use a filler over top of the powder such as oat bran or cream of wheat. Use enough filler that the load is still compressed fairly firmly. The compression will prevent the BP and filler from mixing so no separator is required.
I know from shooting my cap and ball .44's that a round ball sitting in front of 30gns of fffg is a lot of fun. And that tells me that a 240 grain bullet, which is a lot heavier than a round ball, in front of 35 to 40 grains of ffg is going to be a lot funner
But for some folks that may be a little strong. If you try the full loads of black which are correctly compressed and find they are a little stout for your tastes then load up a bit less black powder but use a filler over top of the powder such as oat bran or cream of wheat. Use enough filler that the load is still compressed fairly firmly. The compression will prevent the BP and filler from mixing so no separator is required.
I would recommend that you find a experienced BP cartridge shooter in your area and hang out with him. I shoot enough BP that I buy BP by the case lot. Each lot I take 25 volumetric BP charges and weight each one on a scale and average the weight and use that figure for weighing BP charges. When using any BP load you need to use a lube that is soft and moist enough to keep the BP fouling soft in the chamber and bore. BP lube recipes can be found on the net as well as at BPCR.net. With BP fouling shots help with accuracy. If BP fowling builds up in the bore it will throw your accuracy out the door. BP loads need to be some what but not necessarily overly compressed. Lyman has a couple of good books on BP reloading and casting. Pick them up. Good luck and have fun.
I'm still a bit confused on the lube. Can you buy bullits that already have lube on them , such as Missouri or berrys? And is this lube sufficient ? Or do I still need to put extra lube on those?.. And I do know a guy who shoots muskets so he may be able to help me ,
Oh, forgot that part.
A lot of the lube used is NOT compatible with black powder and will combine with the fouling to produce a sticky tar like mess that does not clean away easily. You want a BP specific lube or you want to use bullets that are known to at least not turn the fouling into tar.
The folks that run Bullet Barn used to shoot a lot of black powder cartridges in their cowboy action shooting. As a result Andy, one of the two that run the outfit, uses a lube which is at least black powder tolerant. Outside of that I don't know of anyone selling bullets that are specifically BP friendly.
If you want to use something you have already you can make your own BP lube. To clean out the existing bullet lube just drop the bullets into boiling water and the wax will come out pretty quickly. Then you can pan lube the bare bullets with some BP lube. You tube is full of videos on how to pan lube cast bullets so I won't go further down that road.
A lot of the lube used is NOT compatible with black powder and will combine with the fouling to produce a sticky tar like mess that does not clean away easily. You want a BP specific lube or you want to use bullets that are known to at least not turn the fouling into tar.
The folks that run Bullet Barn used to shoot a lot of black powder cartridges in their cowboy action shooting. As a result Andy, one of the two that run the outfit, uses a lube which is at least black powder tolerant. Outside of that I don't know of anyone selling bullets that are specifically BP friendly.
If you want to use something you have already you can make your own BP lube. To clean out the existing bullet lube just drop the bullets into boiling water and the wax will come out pretty quickly. Then you can pan lube the bare bullets with some BP lube. You tube is full of videos on how to pan lube cast bullets so I won't go further down that road.
