450 marlin vs 444 marlin vs 45-70

Boomer, interesting to read what you say about micro groove barrels and accuracy.
I had a Marlin 22 inch 45-70 with Ballard rifling. I did considerable experimenting with various powders of various loads and found a lot of variance in accuracy with them, also. I sold the pre Remington rifle because of the horror stories of heavy loads damaging the eyes.
I have now acquired a 22 inch barrel Marlin, made in 1974, only the second year of them making the 45-60 rifle. It has quality written all over it and has the micro groove barrel. I have vowed to keep the loadings down to the order of loads developed for the Springfield Trapdoor. If I can find my notes for the other Marlin rifle with Ballard rifling I will duplicate my lighter loads and see how they compare.
 
Boomer said:
IMHO, the .45/70 and the .450 Marlin offer comparable performance, and both are at their best and most versatile when handloaded. You wouldn't expect shooting factory .458 Winchester to be inexpensive, and the same goes for it's shorter brothers. The .444 is restricted in terms of bullet weight, but I suppose you could contact a custom bullet mould outfit and get them to make you a mould for a gas checked 400 gr .430" WFN.

sgtrock, for many years I was under the impression that microgroove rifling was undesirable for cast bullet shooting, and came to this conclusion from attempting it with my first generation of the reintroduced 1895 Marlin. But according to Veral Smith, owner of Lead Bullet Technology, Marlin's Microgroove is one of the best rifling styles for cast bullet shooting, and uses the very accurate Marlin rimfire barrels as evidence. When I came across that, I wished I had that .45/70 back so I could explore his theory in greater depth.
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Good info Boomer:), and thanks for sharing. This is the selection of 45 cal cast bullets I get from a friend locally to use in a couple of Marlins I have/had.



Hard cast and come out about 0.0015" over bore diameter. Accuracy in the Marlin 1895GS 45-70,



that I have since given to my son in the B.C central interior has been acceptable to excellent.
Fairly recently picked up a Marlin GBL in 45-70



but haven't tried any cast through it;), yet but see no reason why it won't handle them as well as the GS does.

In addition, I have some RN 200gr cast that I put through an old Marlin 1894 in 44-40


And, in my Marlin 444S



I have a couple of cast bullets I get from the same source



And again, accuracy is decent:).
 
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The only issue with microgroove barrels is that the bore diameter ends up being slightly larger. For cast projectiles this can be a problem for optimal accuracy.
If the bullet is sized a bit larger, .432 to .434, many will find the .44 and .444 rifles that are microgrooved shoot cast quite nice.
A gas check doesn't hurt either.
 
wasn't the 458x2" originally developed with heavy bullet/sub-sonic loads for special forces for use in suppressed firearms in vietnam for taking out sentries or am I confusing it with a different one?
 
I was under the impression that the silenced .458 used by the military was an basic unaltered M-70 .458 with a can on it, but I would have to dive into the books to confirm that.

With respect to the microgroove .45/70, in those days I was using plain base bullets backed with 3031, so I have no doubt that accuracy would be improved and fouling would be lessened with gas checked bullets.
 
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Rembo said:
If you want something more than the 30-30 in your lever gun and the 444 and 45-70 seem like too much of a good thing here's your answer...:)

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My all time favorite cartridge, but my one is chambered in my all time favorite rifle. A Winchester Big Bore XTR.
View attachment 29697

The .450 Marlin and .45-70 though are great to work with as well. I've never owned a .444 Marlin, due to the
lack of heavy bullet selection back in the day, plus the Micro Groove deal with lead. Still, the .444 has a steady following with folks and it does the job fine on game within sensible range.

I enjoy both my .450 Marlin chambered Steyr Big Bore & .45-70 Pedersoli 86/71 as they handle well and are
accurate with the loads I feed 'em. It's all good.:)
 
bcsteve said:
Brutus has it backwards. The issue is that a .458x2" could slip in a 7mm Rem Mag chamber. Now you have some issues! (an idiot trying to load a gun for one)
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Yup! good thing Hornady put the extra wide belt on the 450 Marlin case and condemned that excellent calibre to permanent obsolescence.
But they probably saved my life. ;)
I'm always trying to stick elephant gun cartridges into my small and medium bore rifles.

Thanks Hornady. :rolleyes:

**Hornady shoulda went with the .458x2 for the 1895M and I'm sure by now they know it.
 
45/70 for me all the way. My loads has slowly backed off but I have a 458 wm a well. My next big bore will likely be a 458/2" American in a short handy bolt gun or a 416 Taylor
To me lever guns and doubles should be rimmed cartridges. It just seems right
 
I have owned the 3 and have settled (for now) on a 444 xlr. My most accurate was a 450mxlr followed by a 444p. All perform well with cast bullets as thats all iv ever shot in them :)
 
I notice that on the ammo boxes Buffalo Bore recommends their "45-70 magnum" ammo be used in Marlin 336/1895 leverguns made after 1972.
There must have been a change in the steels the guns were made of in 1972.
 
I have both a 1895g in 45-70 and a BLR in 450 Marlin the BLR 450 Marlin out performs ( velocity ) the 45-70 because of 2 reasons- the longer barrel and being able to seat the bullets out further in the 450 after i removed the 1/4" thick mag block - other then that they perform pretty much the same . I like the KOOL 450 Marlin Cartridge and it has a BELT too Like the other Big Boy Magnum cartridges ! :d LOL ;) RJ
 
If you plan on hunting with it, the only advantage the 444 has is that factory ammo is loaded hotter than factory 45-70. If you fly to a hunt, and your ammo gets left behind, factory ammo might have to be used.

A small consideration.

I had a 444. Worked well. A 45-70 would have worked as well.
 
From the Hornady site :
444 265 Interlock 2400 fps 1976 foot lbs at 100 yds
444 265 FTX 2325 fps 1971 foot lbs at 100 yds

45-70 250 Mono Flex 2025 fps 1616 foot lbs
325 FTX 2050 fps 1729 foot lbs

450 Marlin 325 FTX 2225 fps 1887 foot lbs

The 45-70 is loaded soft in case someone STUPID stuffs one in a old trapdoor ! I shoot 400-405 gr-ers at 2000 FPS RJ
 
quarterman said:
I would be pretty happy with 1 moa to 1 1/2 moa, I would be using it a my brush rifle.
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I like my BLR 450 Marlin more then my 45-70 Guide gun - i like the mag system and its so smooth and fast the action ! jmo RJ

P1000492.JPG
 
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Gunoholic said:
I notice that on the ammo boxes Buffalo Bore recommends their "45-70 magnum" ammo be used in Marlin 336/1895 leverguns made after 1972.
There must have been a change in the steels the guns were made of in 1972.
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The earliest M1895's date all the way back to 1895 and were manuf. into the early 1900's. Although most of them have a "special Smokeless Steel" roll mark, and are considered one of the strongest lever guns of their time ( on a par with original 86 Winchesters), their strength does not compare with the modern version of the M 1895. I believe the year 1972 that Buffalo reverences to is the year Marlin re-introduced the 45-70 to their modern line-up
 
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