.455 fiocchi in mk2 webley

[scianna54]

It was manufactured in the 1880s and it has a .456 bore.
The 1917 S&W has a .457 bore.
The modern .455 webley (ww1) has a .454 bore.
pure lead bullets can be up to 0.002 over the bore diameter.
I would not try that with very hard cast.
I slugged each chamber mouth as well they were at .456 as well on the antique webley.

A number of sources caution against using heavy loads in any of the early break action webleys as well.

You make it sound like a secret, definitely not a Webley Mark 1 or 2. Need more info to judge your info. How did you measure the bore? Lands? Grooves etc.

Webley Mark 1 and 2 are tanks and you won't break them using the Fiochi ammo.

Personally I would recommend against using oversized soft lead bullets, too much lead shaving.

 

[dingus]

Just because of all the new people that read theses threads please keep in mind most all MKIs and MKII do not have .455 bores they have tighter .451 or .452 bores and chamber throats to match.
for that reason its better to shoot lead bullet 45 acp in the ones converted than .455 fiochhi or any 455 ammos.
I prefer a webley in 45 Acp i think theres way less stress pushing a .451 dia bullet down a .451 bore than pushing a 455 bullet down the same bore its really not rocket sicence eh
Tho they can handle the 455 dia bullets the extra dia of the bullet causes more presure than a lead 45 acp bullet that is closer to the bore dia.

Webley MKIs and MKIIs that are marked 455/476 (comercial guns) have the bigger bores and chamber throats but 99% of the webleys sold up here are ..452 bore dia or less.

So check your guns chamber throats and bores people you will be surprised.

I shoot the SFRC wolf 45 acp SWC ammo in my MKI** with no signs of presure mind you its pretty mild ammo under 800 fps.
I dont recomend shooting hot factory 45 acp ammo in theses old guns or copper jacketed ammo either thats what hurts them.
By hurt i meen bends the rear latch screw thats what loosens up a webley
anyone who has a webley that has a loose barrel to frame shuting 99% of the time its just that that screw bends.
A simple test is take a slotted screw driver and try turning your rear latch screw 180 degrees back.
if the gun now shuts tighter that screw is bent. Thats is always the frist sign your shooting ammo thats to hot as far as the webley getting loose the frames dont strech there two pieces how can they strech lol.

I did some extensive tests with 2400 smokeless powder to see what loads bent latch screws in my MKI** and its up there
more so than you would think FPS wise.
Not gona post the info so dont ask but the latch screw is one of there weak points.

Thats why Major Schofield was a very smart guy he designed a latch that is the strongest of any brake open designe out there.
The latch on a schofield is also held by a screw but at the moment the gun fires the hammer fits in a V shaped grove and this also gives the latch the extra strength of the hammers screw as well as the latch screw.

 

[swampdog]

If anyone has pictures or other evidence of failures attributable to the use of Fiocchi .455 ammo (not .45 ACP) in old Webleys, please share the information. Are not the pressures created by shooting Fiocchi .455 ammo much lower than shooting factory .45 ACP out of converted Webleys?

 

[dingus]

If anyone has pictures or other evidence of failures attributable to the use of Fiocchi .455 ammo (not .45 ACP) in old Webleys, please share the information. Are not the pressures created by shooting Fiocchi .455 ammo much lower than shooting factory .45 ACP out of converted Webleys?

It depends on which factory 45 acp ammo you use ?
Theres alot out there eh most of it is copper jacketed.
I only use the lead bullet 45 Acp under 800 Fps

Fiochhi 455 is weird ammo some is mild yet ive had boxes that were pretty hot. Dont know why but theres a diffrence maby the older stuff was hot the newer stuff they cut back the powder charge.
I never seen or heard of any 455 fiochhi causeing any problems in any mKI or mKII webleys.
Theres lots of fear and talk but ive not seen any proof it hurts the guns at all.

Them old pictures of the blowin up MKVI are old and been around for years that happened because of some supper hot loaded round getting into a gun by mistake.
You can blow up any gun if you want to.
Im pretty sure them pictures came out back when cheep surplus webley MKVIs flooded the USA for like $18 each.
It would not surprise me if it was done on purpose to slow sales of the webleys so the more expensive S&W tripple locks and other US made guns went back up in sales.

I never seen any recent pictures of any of the webley guns up here in Canada damaged by 45 acp or 455.

 

[cyclone]

Just because of all the new people that read theses threads please keep in mind most all MKIs and MKII do not have .455 bores they have tighter .451 or .452 bores and chamber throats to match.
for that reason its better to shoot lead bullet 45 acp in the ones converted than .455 fiochhi or any 455 ammos.
I prefer a webley in 45 Acp i think theres way less stress pushing a .451 dia bullet down a .451 bore than pushing a 455 bullet down the same bore its really not rocket sicence eh
Tho they can handle the 455 dia bullets the extra dia of the bullet causes more presure than a lead 45 acp bullet that is closer to the bore dia.

Webley MKIs and MKIIs that are marked 455/476 (comercial guns) have the bigger bores and chamber throats but 99% of the webleys sold up here are ..452 bore dia or less.

So check your guns chamber throats and bores people you will be surprised.

I shoot the SFRC wolf 45 acp SWC ammo in my MKI** with no signs of presure mind you its pretty mild ammo under 800 fps.
I dont recomend shooting hot factory 45 acp ammo in theses old guns or copper jacketed ammo either thats what hurts them.
By hurt i meen bends the rear latch screw thats what loosens up a webley
anyone who has a webley that has a loose barrel to frame shuting 99% of the time its just that that screw bends.
A simple test is take a slotted screw driver and try turning your rear latch screw 180 degrees back.
if the gun now shuts tighter that screw is bent. Thats is always the frist sign your shooting ammo thats to hot as far as the webley getting loose the frames dont strech there two pieces how can they strech lol.

I did some extensive tests with 2400 smokeless powder to see what loads bent latch screws in my MKI** and its up there
more so than you would think FPS wise.
Not gona post the info so dont ask but the latch screw is one of there weak points.

Thats why Major Schofield was a very smart guy he designed a latch that is the strongest of any brake open designe out there.
The latch on a schofield is also held by a screw but at the moment the gun fires the hammer fits in a V shaped grove and this also gives the latch the extra strength of the hammers screw as well as the latch screw.

So the (obviously later) double-action S&W's latches are........weaker ?.....

This has always confused me.......

vs.

 

[swampdog]

dingus, It also occurred to me that Fiocchi may be making their ammo milder than in the past. I am surprised at how mild this ammo seems, especially after all the warnings against using this "hot" ammo. Compared to .357 Magnum or .45 ACP, there's not much noise or recoil. Or is the Webley just that much gentler to shoot?

 

[gutinater]

Id like to try and shoot some, but since Im not a revolver guru I may not be able to tell by sound and feel if the ammo is hot or weak not having anything really to compare it to.

 

[dingus]

Id like to try and shoot some, but since Im not a revolver guru I may not be able to tell by sound and feel if the ammo is hot or weak not having anything really to compare it to.

Well like i said theres no proof that even the older hotter stuff hurts the webley mKIs or mKIIS
if you bought ammo sold in the last few years you should be fine.
Also there newer ammo box changed colours older stuff was silver or grey newer stuff has some purple on them.
I think its true Fiochhi changed there loads with there newer ammo its milder.
Hornady 455 has always been mild.

re cyclones post ....
Its to bad major Schofield shot himself with his own gun over some invention he was haveing trobles over.
The schofield latch is the best i ever seen ever even on the nerwer made guns.
schofield made a great improvement.
my schofield is my favorite gun of all my break tops

 

[smellie]

BORE diameter is one thing to know.

GROOVES do tend to be a bit deeper.

Shoving a .451 bullet down a .451 BORE will give you bullet rotation, but it will be almost an accident. Also, windage WILL be a problem.

Look at the .303": bores anywhere from .301 to .304 (wartime relaxation) and they used a .312 bullet. Most of them don't shoot worth BEANS with a .308" slug because that leaves only 2-1/2 thousandths to try to fill each groove. Windage does its best at the same time, destabilising the bullet as it leaves the muzzle.

Webleys, in their day, were prize-winning guns on the ranges and likely the finest combat gun of the period.

In order to get ACCURACY, the GROOVES have to be filled with something.

The BULLET is the obvious "something".
.

 

[gutinater]

The .455 I bought was from Canada ammo and is grey/ off white box. I got it a week ago

 

[smellie]

Classic bullet for the .455 Webley is a 265-grain rather pointy lead slug with a VERRRY deep base cavity, much like a Minie cavity but actually a bit deeper, and a very thin skirt.

It was designed to blow out and fill the grooves.

That's a good chunk of the reason they were so accurate.

A solid lead slug, smaller than the actual bore, is a waste of powder and primers.

The bullet, somehow, must fill the grooves.
.

 

[jethunter]

BORE diameter is one thin to know.

GROOVES do tend to be a bit deeper.

Shoving a .451 bullet down a .451 BORE will give you bullet rotation, but it will be almost an accident. Also, windage WILL be a problem.

Look at the .303": bores anywhere from .301 to .304 (wartime relaxation) and they used a .312 bullet. Most of them don't shoot worth BEANS with a .308" slug because that leaves only 2-1/2 thousandths to try to fill each groove. Windage does its best at the same time, destabilising the bullet as it leaves the muzzle.

Webleys, in their day, were prize-winning guns on the ranges and likely the finest combat gun of the period.

In order to get ACCURACY, the GROOVES have to be filled with something.

The BULLET is the obvious "something".
.

I'm mostly in agreement with Smellie on this one. These MKI / MKII service revolvers were designed with an unusually tight throat for some reason (sometimes attributed to WD meddling with the specs). The other non-WD contract model webleys do not have the tight throats like the MKI/II/III .455 service pistols do.

Usually a revolver is throated slightly larger than the bore so that there is some bullet diameter left to grab the rifling and fill the grooves. A lead bullet should be at least .001" larger than the groove diameter, otherwise gas leakage may occur and result in leading and poor accuracy. Unfortunately those tight throats mess up that plan.

As Smellie said - that leaves only the bullet. The original soft HB bullet expands again after it has exited the throat to fill the grooves and to grab that rather shallow rifling. They are still the simplest bullet to make shoot well in these webley service pistols. The .452 bullets will shoot OK in quite a few but they can also frequently shoot poorly and create leading problems. I have had a few MKI/II that would keyhole the .452" diameter bullets with every shot. Switching to the hollow based webley bullet fixed that right up.

That original .455" 265gr RN hollow based bullet has a very small bearing surface that will allow it to swage down without any great increase in pressure because the actual surface area affected is quite small. This tends to make one think that the bullet was specially designed this way just so it could safely fit the tight throated service pistols AND the other .455 webley revolvers that did not have such tight throats and bores, such as the WG and the RIC. It even works passably well in the older .476 chambered webley revolvers.

The original .455" 265 gr hollow base bullet is still the easiest bullet to make shoot well in this revolver, which is not too surprising when you consider that it was specifically made to do just that. It was designed as a hollow base so that it could expand to fill the bore and grab the rifling on bores that it did not otherwise fit very well. It is known as "the webley bullet" for good reason.

 

[10x]

You make it sound like a secret, definitely not a Webley Mark 1 or 2. Need more info to judge your info. How did you measure the bore? Lands? Grooves etc.

Webley Mark 1 and 2 are tanks and you won't break them using the Fiochi ammo.

Personally I would recommend against using oversized soft lead bullets, too much lead shaving.

It is a Mk1.

The grove diameter was measured with soft lead slugs and a micrometer to measure the slugs. The chamber mouths were measured with soft lead slugs as well.
Not driven through but upset with a punch then measured.
Plug gauges confirmed the measurement on the chamber mouth.

I have found that depending on the gun there are no lead shaving or leading issues with .455 soft bullets and low pressure or B.P. loads
In fact with smokeless powder the guns seem to like bullets 0.001 to 0.002 over groove diameter.
With BP a soft lead bullet seems to work well.

I do not shoot fiochi in my Mk 1. I avoid it in all webleys made up to 1915. I do shoot the fiochi in a S&W 1917 and it seems to be very hot.
The handloads in .455 that came with the S&W were loaded with Unque and were well past loading manual maximums. The bullets got pulled and they were reloaded with much lower pressure loads.

I will not take the chance that a diet of high pressure loads may cause the gun to shoot loose or fail.
A fine shooting antique webley is a joy to shoot until it breaks.

 

[dingus]

BORE diameter is one thing to know.

GROOVES do tend to be a bit deeper.

Shoving a .451 bullet down a .451 BORE will give you bullet rotation, but it will be almost an accident. Also, windage WILL be a problem.

Look at the .303": bores anywhere from .301 to .304 (wartime relaxation) and they used a .312 bullet. Most of them don't shoot worth BEANS with a .308" slug because that leaves only 2-1/2 thousandths to try to fill each groove. Windage does its best at the same time, destabilising the bullet as it leaves the muzzle.

Webleys, in their day, were prize-winning guns on the ranges and likely the finest combat gun of the period.

In order to get ACCURACY, the GROOVES have to be filled with something.

The BULLET is the obvious "something".
.

Well my gun shoots more accurate with 45 Acp i use SWC ammo and the lead fills out just fine.
Most of the time i reload my own useing .452 Dia SWC cast not to hard and they shoot better than the big .455 dia RNHB 265 gr webley bullets eh.
In my guns anyway.
I have not shot or reloaded any .455 proper webley bullets for years the Keith SWCs are just better.

I use a custom MKVI cylinder with a reamed chamber so i can use 45 win auto mag cases there the same length as a 45 schofield and they fit in moon clips just like 45 acp but being much longer shoot way better than 45 acp cases.
Still keep the loads down low presure and use the SWC Keith bullets sized .452 but sure is nice to have under 3 inch groups from a MKI **

Alsothe rifleing in a webley is fine compared to the old S&Ws which had wide flat rifleing.
The webleys have perfect rifleing for bore sized bullets my groups are proof of that.
Im talking about webleys with .451 to .452 bores.

As to prize winning guns most of the prize winners at bisley were WGs and webley Wilkinsons ect there bores are all bigger .455 bores. the WGs and other webleys that have .455 bores or bigger or the comercial webley MKIs or MKIIs that have .460 dia bores. Thats where the bigger hollow based bullets come into play.
most of the mKIs and mKIIs sold here in Canada have tighter .452 or less dia bores some of the 455 bullets ive come accross are very hard cast to which is another thing to think about not everyone casts soft bullets.

Any reloader knows to get a good accuracy from a hand gun the bore and chamber throats should match and bullet be no more than a few tho over grove dia or presure tends to spike.

My 2nd model schofield has a mint bore but its a tight bore and chamber throats at .451 and i shoot .452 dia SWC bullets outa it and it shoots under 3 inch groups at 25 yds no problem.
I would never think of shooting .455 bullets down the bore of that gun anyone that would do that would be takeing a big risk.

 

[jethunter]

Interesting opinions. I have had mixed results with the .452" bullets in the MKI/II. I have had 2 revolvers that would not shoot it at all - keyhole at 20 yards everytime. I have several more that shot it just fine - providing it was SOFT cast. Regular commercial hard cast lead did not shoot as well.

I think Dingus touched on one thing that most people pass over - soft bullets shoot better in the great majority of these guns than hard bullets. Another Dingus-ism that matches my experience is that some of the so-called "soft cast" HB webley bullets are anything but. Those bullets don't shoot well in these revolvers if they are too hard.

About half the MKI/II .455 service revolvers I have checked had a throat of smaller diameter than the actual bore. That's not a recipe for high accuracy potential. If the bullet is swaged down going through the throat so that it's too skinny to fit the bore, then the bullet must physically expand to grasp the bore if we want the bullet to perform with any degree of accuracy. There are two methods to accomplish that. One is with an expanding hollow base and the other by using a soft flat base bullet that obturates as it is driven down the barrel by the expanding gases behind it. "Obturate" is a $10 word that simply mean the expanding gases kick the bullet in the base hard enough to make it expand and fit the bore. Interestingly the people who originally designed both the ammo and the weapon went with the hollow base formula.

Unless you cast your own bullets it is hard to find soft cast .452" or .454" inch bullets commercially. I bought 3000 from Ben a couple years ago but they are almost gone. I've started casting my own now.

In a perfect world the throat is actually a bit larger than the bore size and that is the formula recommended by Keith himself. In the revolvers that don't shoot flat based bullets well, I have found that the bore is larger diameter than the throat. I speculate that even with soft cast flat based bullets the base cannot bump enough to grab the rifling. The only bullet I have gotten to shoot in these revolvers is the hollow based bullet with a stout load of powder pushing it. Lighter loads don't seem to have enough horsepower to flare the skirt sufficiently to grab the rifling.

The other thing that people tend to gloss over is that there is quite a large variation in throat and bore sizes possible. I have measured throats from 0.450" to 0.453", and bore sizes of 0.451" to .454". Given these large variations there will be no single recipe that will work 100% in all cases, and this mostly explains the large differences of opinion about what works and what doesn't. But in my experieince a soft cast hollow based bullet type is as close to an "all-rounder" as one can find within these parameters.

That's my belief gained from my my own experimenting and not so much from reading other people's experience on a forum. I am not a technical expert and i relate only my own observations which are obviously limited to the revolvers I have sampled. I have 4 MKI and MKII revolvers living in the gun safe currently, and have reloaded for and played with another dozen or so that I no longer own. That is hardly a large enough sample to speak with absolute authority but it is the basis for my statements.

 

[10x]

Interesting opinions. I have had mixed results with the .452" bullets in the MKI/II. I have had 2 revolvers that would not shoot it at all - keyhole at 20 yards everytime. I have several more that shot it just fine - providing it was SOFT cast. Regular commercial hard cast lead did not shoot as well.

I think Dingus touched on one thing that most people pass over - soft bullets shoot better in the great majority of these guns than hard bullets. Another Dingus-ism that matches my experience is that some of the so-called "soft cast" HB webley bullets are anything but. Those bullets don't shoot well in these revolvers if they are too hard.

About half the MKI/II .455 service revolvers I have checked had a throat of smaller diameter than the actual bore. That's not a recipe for high accuracy potential. If the bullet is swaged down going through the throat so that it's too skinny to fit the bore, then the bullet must physically expand to grasp the bore if we want the bullet to perform with any degree of accuracy. There are two methods to accomplish that. One is with an expanding hollow base and the other by using a soft flat base bullet that obturates as it is driven down the barrel by the expanding gases behind it. "Obturate" is a $10 word that simply mean the expanding gases kick the bullet in the base hard enough to make it expand and fit the bore. Interestingly the people who originally designed both the ammo and the weapon went with the hollow base formula.

Unless you cast your own bullets it is hard to find soft cast .452" or .454" inch bullets commercially. I bought 3000 from Ben a couple years ago but they are almost gone. I've started casting my own now.

In a perfect world the throat is actually a bit larger than the bore size and that is the formula recommended by Keith himself. In the revolvers that don't shoot flat based bullets well, I have found that the bore is larger diameter than the throat. I speculate that even with soft cast flat based bullets the base cannot bump enough to grab the rifling. The only bullet I have gotten to shoot in these revolvers is the hollow based bullet with a stout load of powder pushing it. Lighter loads don't seem to have enough horsepower to flare the skirt sufficiently to grab the rifling.

The other thing that people tend to gloss over is that there is quite a large variation in throat and bore sizes possible. I have measured throats from 0.450" to 0.453", and bore sizes of 0.451" to .454". Given these large variations there will be no single recipe that will work 100% in all cases, and this mostly explains the large differences of opinion about what works and what doesn't. But in my experieince a soft cast hollow based bullet type is as close to an "all-rounder" as one can find within these parameters.

That's my belief gained from my my own experimenting and not so much from reading other people's experience on a forum. I am not a technical expert and i relate only my own observations which are obviously limited to the revolvers I have sampled. I have 4 MKI and MKII revolvers living in the gun safe currently, and have reloaded for and played with another dozen or so that I no longer own. That is hardly a large enough sample to speak with absolute authority but it is the basis for my statements.

That is a very nice summation.
Soft lead bullets compensate for much
And if you are brave a chamber mouth can be opened up with 320 or 400 grit emery paper on a dowel - if done very carefully.
The .455 bores I have measured seem to slug larger than yours. And larger than I expected in mine from the information I had read in various sources
It is for sure that a hard bullet that is smaller than bore diameter is not going to shoot well in any revolver.

 

[dingus]

Thats why guns with matching chamber throats and bores do shoot better than mix matched ones.
I agree Jethunter that haveing a chamber throats smaller than the bore is bad for accuracy.
The reason my 1873 french guns shoot 45 Acp so well is the throats must be opened up to .452 to match the bores dia as most are about .452 Dia but the throats are smaller in some guns.
Same with alot of guns really if you dont check both throat and bore dia your only guessing as to what your doing and thats how guns can blow up.

 

[gutinater]

is the webley supposed to lock the cylinder is place with the hammer back like most revolvers?

 

[jethunter]

is the webley supposed to lock the cylinder is place with the hammer back like most revolvers?

No. The webley cylinder lock up is a function of the trigger being pulled. The cylinder will not lock until the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear. Quite a few old revolvers were made like that. The model 1892 french service pistol and the colt SAA use a similar locking mechanism activated by the trigger.

To check lock up, hold the hammer back, pull the trigger all the way to the rear and hold it. You can then gently release the hammer to decock position, while still keeping the trigger fully depressed. Now use your free hand to try to rotate the cylinder to check the lockup. It should be solid. A very slight movement is still shootable but more than that can become an issue.

If you do find that there is some play in the cylinder lockup, don't sweat it. It is not usually a big job to get it tightened up.

 

[gutinater]

How far off can the cylinder be out of index with the barrel and still be safe to shoot? How does one fix that problem?