.455 for a Webley - any ideas?
- Thread starter Dark Alley Dan
- Start date
I'm shooting a Webley Mark VI and a Colt's New Service in this calibre, using six grains of Unique and a standard Large Pistol primer. Slug is a LEE cast .454", 260-grain from their El Cheapo mould (which works real good). Accuracy in both guns is just fine, no problems at all. Pressures are quite low, as demanded by this cartridge. This load is very close to what the 1961 Lyman book recommended as duplicating the original 630 ft/sec for the military round.
Brass is a mixture of old Dominion .455 Colt, which used the long casing, and reworked .45 Long Colt (rims thinned, cases trimmed). A small problem is that the Long Colt btass wasn't trimmed far enough down, so, of course, it won't work in the New Service. I was going to pull it down when I tried it in the Webley....... and it fits just fine, even though grossly overlength for the Colt's revolver. Shoots okay, too.
Brass for this can also be made from .45 Auto Rim, which is just perfect for length; all you have to do is thin the rim on a lathe and you have something very close to the old Dominion .455 Colt brass.
It's a fun cartridge to load and can be very accurate..... but definitely not something you would want to stand in front of: the holes in tin cans are quite impressive.
Brass is a mixture of old Dominion .455 Colt, which used the long casing, and reworked .45 Long Colt (rims thinned, cases trimmed). A small problem is that the Long Colt btass wasn't trimmed far enough down, so, of course, it won't work in the New Service. I was going to pull it down when I tried it in the Webley....... and it fits just fine, even though grossly overlength for the Colt's revolver. Shoots okay, too.
Brass for this can also be made from .45 Auto Rim, which is just perfect for length; all you have to do is thin the rim on a lathe and you have something very close to the old Dominion .455 Colt brass.
It's a fun cartridge to load and can be very accurate..... but definitely not something you would want to stand in front of: the holes in tin cans are quite impressive.
.455
A few years back, I made up about 1500 cases from .45 Colt. It was a very simple matter to make up the tooling in a lathe to thin the rim (from the front). I didn't have to turn off the lathe to change cases. After the rims were thinned, I moved the cutter and then shortened the cases.
.45 Auto Rim cases can be used and are supposed to be a bit better but are almost as hard to find.
I became tired of the .455's and traded off my revolvers and dumped the brass. Higginson Powders have the dies and they can be had with just a phone call.
A few years back, I made up about 1500 cases from .45 Colt. It was a very simple matter to make up the tooling in a lathe to thin the rim (from the front). I didn't have to turn off the lathe to change cases. After the rims were thinned, I moved the cutter and then shortened the cases.
.45 Auto Rim cases can be used and are supposed to be a bit better but are almost as hard to find.
I became tired of the .455's and traded off my revolvers and dumped the brass. Higginson Powders have the dies and they can be had with just a phone call.
In my humble opinion, the best brass to make .455 out of is Starline's .45 Schofield brass.
If you look at some case dimension drafts, you will see it is very close to .455 head and body dimensions (except for length). You do have to turn the rim down - FROM THE FRONT - just like the candidates in other calibers.
The advantage is you will quickly find most Webley revolvers will take pretty long cases - well over spec - and I happen to think the closer you can get the bullet to the front of the cylinder in the chamber, the better life is going to be in general. I don't think a bullet wandering a fair distance up the chamber with no support immediately after firing helps things any.
So, in my case, I found out what the LONGEST case length was that would reliably chamber in all the cylinders in my Webley when it was dirty - I only own one, so how they fit in others doesn't matter to me one way or another. I also found out what the THICKEST the rim could be and still not rub when the cylinder was dirty...
Then I was about to make up a mandrel and go to town when I friend who is a machinest offered to do all the cases for me if I took him out for a good long shooting session with the old warhorse. Deal! He did 500 cases in the time it would have taken me to do ten, probably... Anyways, I'm set for life...
If a dollar a round or so for loaded ammo doesn't bother you and 50 is all you need, buy some factory stuff. Otherwise, consider buying several hundred Starline .45 Schofield cases and custom fitting them to your resolver (you have to turn them down and shorten them anyways, it might as well be to the maximum rim thickness/maximum case length that fits your gun).
Bullets... the RCBS replica bullet mould (i.e. has a base pin so you get a hollow skirt) is a bit pricy but will probably pay off if you buy it. Slug and mike your cylinder throats and the barrel and you will probably find that the bullets are well undersize by the time they arrive at the barrel from the cylinders... I haven't looked at many, but every Webley I have checked has cylinder throat diameters much smaller than barrel diameters. I think that skirt helps the now-undersized bullet do much better than it would otherwise... I assume it was intended to correct for the problem the undersized throats caused in the first place.
Why the Brits made the cylinder throats so undersized... we'll never know.
BTW... if anyone knows where one can pick up one of those offset front sight blades that were made for the Webleys - or one of the brass speedloaders - email me. Not so interested in the speedloaders, but my Webley shoots very well indeed, it just throws them all to the left.
If you look at some case dimension drafts, you will see it is very close to .455 head and body dimensions (except for length). You do have to turn the rim down - FROM THE FRONT - just like the candidates in other calibers.
The advantage is you will quickly find most Webley revolvers will take pretty long cases - well over spec - and I happen to think the closer you can get the bullet to the front of the cylinder in the chamber, the better life is going to be in general. I don't think a bullet wandering a fair distance up the chamber with no support immediately after firing helps things any.
So, in my case, I found out what the LONGEST case length was that would reliably chamber in all the cylinders in my Webley when it was dirty - I only own one, so how they fit in others doesn't matter to me one way or another. I also found out what the THICKEST the rim could be and still not rub when the cylinder was dirty...
Then I was about to make up a mandrel and go to town when I friend who is a machinest offered to do all the cases for me if I took him out for a good long shooting session with the old warhorse. Deal! He did 500 cases in the time it would have taken me to do ten, probably... Anyways, I'm set for life...
If a dollar a round or so for loaded ammo doesn't bother you and 50 is all you need, buy some factory stuff. Otherwise, consider buying several hundred Starline .45 Schofield cases and custom fitting them to your resolver (you have to turn them down and shorten them anyways, it might as well be to the maximum rim thickness/maximum case length that fits your gun).
Bullets... the RCBS replica bullet mould (i.e. has a base pin so you get a hollow skirt) is a bit pricy but will probably pay off if you buy it. Slug and mike your cylinder throats and the barrel and you will probably find that the bullets are well undersize by the time they arrive at the barrel from the cylinders... I haven't looked at many, but every Webley I have checked has cylinder throat diameters much smaller than barrel diameters. I think that skirt helps the now-undersized bullet do much better than it would otherwise... I assume it was intended to correct for the problem the undersized throats caused in the first place.
Why the Brits made the cylinder throats so undersized... we'll never know.
BTW... if anyone knows where one can pick up one of those offset front sight blades that were made for the Webleys - or one of the brass speedloaders - email me. Not so interested in the speedloaders, but my Webley shoots very well indeed, it just throws them all to the left.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Excellent bunch of tips, lads - thanks very much. I need to get to know more machinists...
Keep 'em coming!
Dan
Keep 'em coming!
Dan
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Good info. I just emailed bcredneck. Now to wait.
Is there some 455 Webley cult I didn't hear about but accidentally joined? Seems there's no shortage of interest in the old girls.
Is there some 455 Webley cult I didn't hear about but accidentally joined? Seems there's no shortage of interest in the old girls.
Jeez. When I was a kid they sold it in the hardware store.
Of course my friend never had the nerve to sneak his step dad's .455 Webley out of the house, so we never shot it.
Actually he had promised me a peek at his step dad's "45' and I was disappointed it wasn't a Colt Peacemaker.
We just snuck into his parent's bedroom once and looked at it.
Of course my friend never had the nerve to sneak his step dad's .455 Webley out of the house, so we never shot it.
Actually he had promised me a peek at his step dad's "45' and I was disappointed it wasn't a Colt Peacemaker.
We just snuck into his parent's bedroom once and looked at it.
Well, B.U.M., I currently own only six revolvers that chamber ".455" ....BigUglyMan said:
In ascending order of age (date of manufacture) they are: a .476 MkII Enfield (NWMP issue), a Webley .450/.455 "W.G. Target", a Webley Mk V Service, a Webley MkVI Service, a S&W 2nd Mod. Hand Ejector, and a Colt New Service (the "baby" of the family - made 1918.)
There is no cult, however ... so long as you engage. without fail, in a weekly lighting of candles and chanting of the Creed, whilst annointing them with oil ... and also ensure that at least one of them is ushered to the Holy Range and fired no less frequently than once per month, you will remain in a Blessed State of Grace ....
Slug the cylinder throats while you're at it and you'll discover that slugging the barrel won't do you a damned bit of good - the cylinder throats on the Webleys always seem to be well under barrel dimensions.Gibbs505 said:
Which is perhaps why the skirted RCBS mould works so well.
I have often toyed with the idea of lapping out my cylinder throats to a tiny bit over bore size. But while I don't think twice about handlapping rifle barrels, doing cylinder throats seems like much riskier business. And I doubt replacement Webley cylinders are being produced these days...
Okay...Also post some photos!!
- Location
- Victoria, BC
New Webley MkVI owner
Wow. I just stumbled into the right place....I too, am a brand new Webley Mk6 owner and am looking for info on this beautifull old sidearm. Thanks folks.
Wow. I just stumbled into the right place....I too, am a brand new Webley Mk6 owner and am looking for info on this beautifull old sidearm. Thanks folks.
PrairieMedic
CGN frequent flyer
While out on the range last night, one of our exec's delivered 3 pistols to
my line. All .455, with a box of rounds! One is Colt New Service, Webley
Mark VI, and a Smith and Wesson Model 10. Any ballparks on price for
such pistols? All have CDN /i\ and armorors stamps. In particular there
are crossed flags stamps on the 10, and the Colt.
A good time was had by all, if i'd have known I would have picked up a
couple of boxes in Calgary on the weekend Sorry for pic, it's my
phone cam. Shows .455 and .40 in foreground.
--PM
my line. All .455, with a box of rounds! One is Colt New Service, Webley
Mark VI, and a Smith and Wesson Model 10. Any ballparks on price for
such pistols? All have CDN /i\ and armorors stamps. In particular there
are crossed flags stamps on the 10, and the Colt.
A good time was had by all, if i'd have known I would have picked up a
couple of boxes in Calgary on the weekend
Sorry for pic, it's my phone cam. Shows .455 and .40 in foreground.
--PM
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Hi-Standard
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Newfoundland
muzzle flash said:
45 autorim will only work if the cylinder has been modified to shoot 45 ACP with halfmoon clips. Hornady still produces brand new Mk.II brass, and can be had from a variety of suppliers. Lee makes the dies, and a cheap mold. The mold is a 220 gr. LRN at .456" in diameter made for the old single action army. Size you bullets with a .454" sizing die. Use light 45 ACP loads and Bob's your uncle
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
One note. The .45 colt rim diameter is a bit smaller than that of the .455. So its possible for a round slip under the extractor on ejecting if you are not careful. Other than that, the converted cases are the same diameter.
By the way, have both Colt and smith in .455. Don't like to shoot the colt as the grip design seems to allow more recoil.
By the way, have both Colt and smith in .455. Don't like to shoot the colt as the grip design seems to allow more recoil.
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Same here i find Webley grips great i dont like Colt either, But the best grip i have held so far is the Webley Wilkinson 1892 its nice and big and very comfortable for big hands.
I ordered 50 x 45 scofeild Starline cases cases as i understand the rim DIA is wider on the scofeild than the 45 long colt.
so extracting the scofeild cases should work better than the colts tho Webley Pryse no 4 extracts the 45 colts and the webley Wilkinson 1892 Also,
I just want to try the 45 scofeild case.
I will still have to trim the front of the rim tho.
I like the 455 Domion cases the best as you get the extra lengh, But there geting hard to find.
I ordered 50 x 45 scofeild Starline cases cases as i understand the rim DIA is wider on the scofeild than the 45 long colt.
so extracting the scofeild cases should work better than the colts tho Webley Pryse no 4 extracts the 45 colts and the webley Wilkinson 1892 Also,
I just want to try the 45 scofeild case.
I will still have to trim the front of the rim tho.
I like the 455 Domion cases the best as you get the extra lengh, But there geting hard to find.
