4570 trapdoor load

bat119

bat119

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My buddy has a trapdoor Springfield original carbine, he wants to try and shoot it. The carbine is in fine shape the lock up seems tight even the bore looks good. I have some primed 45/70 cases thinking of loading 60 grains 2F under a 405 cast bullet. Would this be a good starting point?
 
That is a good start, original cartridges had 70 grains of compressed black powder. Remember that the powder is to measured by volume not by weight. The powder has to be some what compressed. Do not have any air space between the powder and bullet. Drop your powder into the case through a brass/copper/aluminum tube (24-36" will do) to help settle/compress the powder. The bullet has to be lubed with a soft lube suitable for black powder.

Good luck and have fun.
 
The original carbine loads were .45-55-405 if I recall correctly. The full house .45-70-500 grain loads were reserved for the infantry rifle. Reason being the infantry loads kicked the snot out of the shooter in the carbine and a horse mounted soldier had enough things to worry about. It was a common dirty trick in the day for old hands to slip a Cavalry rookie a .45-70-500 load to shoot in his carbine.

The cutaways I've seen had a fibre wad to take up space. I would recommend starting with 55 grains in the case, start with compressing the powder .100" and see what kind of space you would have to take up with a wad to make it so as you can seat a 405 gr bullet. I would stay away from Dacron filler. I'm not even sure about Puff-Lon. Check with Buffalo Arms about what they have for wads as a starter.
 
Short Knife Johnson said:
The original carbine loads were .45-55-405 if I recall correctly. The full house .45-70-500 grain loads were reserved for the infantry rifle. Reason being the infantry loads kicked the snot out of the shooter in the carbine and a horse mounted soldier had enough things to worry about. It was a common dirty trick in the day for old hands to slip a Cavalry rookie a .45-70-500 load to shoot in his carbine.

The cutaways I've seen had a fibre wad to take up space. I would recommend starting with 55 grains in the case, start with compressing the powder .100" and see what kind of space you would have to take up with a wad to make it so as you can seat a 405 gr bullet. I would stay away from Dacron filler. I'm not even sure about Puff-Lon. Check with Buffalo Arms about what they have for wads as a starter.
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I was playing with a rolling block today in 45-70. I usually load 60 grains of bp with a grease cookie and 2 cards. After reading this post earlier, I decided to try a reduced bp load using a felt wad to fill the excess space.

I did not bother to lube the overpowder wad. The smell of burnt hair from the burning wad was quite aromatic.:cool:
 
Short Knife Johnson said:
The original carbine loads were .45-55-405 if I recall correctly.
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100% correct...I am glad you jumped on that one...far too many guys make that false assumption and give wrong advice. I have heard it a million times as well!!!!!!
As for a good load for the carbine...start low and work up.
-A good starting point is 50 grains of FFg. Then work up by 2.5 grain increments. Make sure you get a slight amount of powder compression when seating the bullet...excessive is not needed.
-Check the diameter of the bullets you are using as they come out of the mold. Some will cast at 0.458 to 0.463 depending on the age of the mold.
-Get yourself some Ox-Yoke Wonderwads in 45 caliber. USE THEM!!!!! They work. If you cannot get those, cut a 7MM Rem. Mag case just behind the shoulder being careful not to deform it. Sharpen the edge and use it as a wad punch with thick stiff felt...like and good cowboy hat. This device punches out a perfect 45 caliber wad. USE IT!!!! I cannot stress that enough. The trapdoor likes a larger bullet...MINIMUM 0.459". This is reality that was gained through thirty years of competing with the trapdoor in BP Cartridge matches
-Don't worry about magnum primers with black powder or trying to fabricate a "drop tube"...not needed in this case.
All of this information comes out of experience that was gained through over thirty years of competing with the trapdoor in BP Cartridge matches.
Just for your information, I used Lyman mold 457193, casting in wheel-weights which dropped a 420 grain bullet at 0.461". I hand lubed them and used a 54.5 gr GOEX FFg. Seated the bullets so the first driving band was visible, and gave it all a solid roll crimp.
My 1880 vintage Carbine would consistently group 1.25 to 1.5 inch at 50 yards...100 yards opened to about 3 inches. You will find that your carbine may shoot a bit high...this is normal as the sight was regulated differently.
Now get out there and shoot that critter and don't forget to post pics.
BTW...I have a serial number listing for trapdoor firearms and would look up your if you want. If so just PM the serial # to me and I will check.
 
I make my wad material using a Fred Cornell wad punch that mounts in the press. You can do up to 3/8" thickness, but they are nice to use.

If you happen to make it to the NB gun show, stop by the Cowboy Action Shooting table and we might be able to discuss this further.
 
I didn't find any 405 gr. Cast bullets so i went with a Speer 350 gr. FP over 55 grs 2F with one wonder wad. Theold rifle handled this load perfectly although the first shot we tried by tying the gun to a tire and pullng the trigger with a string. The group at 50 yards was less then impressive but the owner was happy to be able to fire it.
 
Is that Speer 350 a jacketed bullet or cast?

If it's jacketed, that would likely account for your group size. BP works most efficiently with cast bullets & lots of non-petroleum based lube. Jackets are hard on the old barrels too.

But glad you got to try it! They are lots of fun
 
They were jacketed. 458 Unless you roll your own cast bullets they are not easy to find. That old barrel was so over size I doubt the bullet even touched it! A good time was had by all everybody went home with all their fingers and eyes
 
I have an H&R trapdoor carbine replica. Wanting to get smoke without the perceived hassles of black, I went with a 405 grain lead bullet and Blackhorn 209. I can't remember the charge weight off the top of my head, but, the load has light recoil and according to the data, moves that chunk of lead at about 1300fps.
 
Yeah some of the subs work very well. I have not yet tried 777 but hear similar success is had with that.

bat119, if your buddy is keen to keep shooting it try the Bullet Barn for nice hard cast .458's at a reasonable price. If you use 777 or (I understand) Blackhorn then you don't have to worry about the lube as much as you do with regular powder. Regular BP, for best results you should actually melt off the smokeless lube & replace with a nice BP friendly lube - otherwise the barrel fouls and your accuracy suffers.

Happy Shooting whatever you do - I love those old Springfields.
 
NorthCoastBigBore said:
Yeah some of the subs work very well. I have not yet tried 777 but hear similar success is had with that.

Happy Shooting whatever you do - I love those old Springfields.
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Me too! I have the feelers out for a H&R carbine I think I'm hooked!
I checked out the bullet barn which would be better inthe 405 one lube groove or two?
 
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