.458 Win Mag in a bolt gun vs. hot loaded .45-70 in a Guide Gun

darkman said:
It would be nice if someone would make a decent lever in 458 win, or Lott.
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Really? A Ruger #1 is as close as I'd like to get to a lever gun with a big cartridge, and if the lever action was built as beefy as the #1, it would loose much of its handling advantages. A slim profile lever action would be on the vicious side, and is more than sufficient in the recoil department in .45/70. A straight grip 95 Marlin tends to sting my knuckles with a standard lever unless I wrap my fingers around the outside of it, so no .458 lever action for me thanks.
 
A gent on AR had a BLR takedown rebarreled from .300WinMag to .458WinMag. I'm pretty sure he said that beyond a barrel, no further mods were necessary. Rounds fed from the original mag. Like all long-action BLR's, it looked a bit out-of-proportion.

Boomer, I guess different rifles fit different people differently.:) I have shot hundreds of rounds of heavy loads in Marlin 1895's, both SBL-length and full-length and never had a problem. BUT...hand me a lovely Ruger #1 in even .300WinMag, let alone .375 or .458, and I begin to whimper and develop a tic. Those guns, as beautiful as they are, just kick the living snot out of me.

I have no interest in a lever .458, but I can't help but think that a BLR takedown model in .416Ruger or even (shudder!) .375Ruger would be a cool hunting gun. Probably a lot more gunsmithing needed to make it happen.
 
jjohnwm said:
A gent on AR had a BLR takedown rebarreled from .300WinMag to .458WinMag. I'm pretty sure he said that beyond a barrel, no further mods were necessary. Rounds fed from the original mag. Like all long-action BLR's, it looked a bit out-of-proportion.

Boomer, I guess different rifles fit different people differently.:) I have shot hundreds of rounds of heavy loads in Marlin 1895's, both SBL-length and full-length and never had a problem. BUT...hand me a lovely Ruger #1 in even .300WinMag, let alone .375 or .458, and I begin to whimper and develop a tic. Those guns, as beautiful as they are, just kick the living snot out of me.

I have no interest in a lever .458, but I can't help but think that a BLR takedown model in .416Ruger or even (shudder!) .375Ruger would be a cool hunting gun. Probably a lot more gunsmithing needed to make it happen.
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Many years ago at a gun show I saw a Browning BAR that had been done in 458 WM.
Apparently it worked very well..
 
Quite a few years ago I had a BAR in .458 wm it worked (as far as feeding) well with pointed bullets worked ok with round nose not so well with flat nose. But it should have had wheels on it to move it around ( that SOB was heavy) It started life as a .300 wm.rebrled to .458 ,B&C stock, mag. went from 3rnds. in .300 to 2 in .458. Sold it as far as I know it is in BC somewhere and still shooting.

stay safe
pounder
 
I'm on my 4th. .458 Magnum now and I enjoy it far more than the 45-70 Marlin
that I bought new back in '77. The .458 is a more flexible round for loading light or
heavy, and in a well balanced bolt gun like my Herters U9, the recoil is more
tolerable than the hot loaded Marlin.
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For folks wanting an older pre-Rem 1895, they should get one with the Ballard
style rifling if they want to shoot cast bullets. The early Marlins with Micro Groove
rifling don't shoot cast loads all that well. ;)
 
Nice picture Shell Shucker, thanks for sharing. Your Herters U9 is the newer and improved version of my old reliable '58 vintage 458 BSA.
Awesome rifles...
 
Thanks Kevan. I bought this rifle from the original owner who special ordered it back in the late 70's.
It's a Presentation Grade, fully glass bedded unit, made in England and has a nicely figured walnut
stock with funky white line spacers. The gun has seen very little use and is in excellent shape.
I got the beasty for $700.oo which included 2 boxes of Hornady 500gr. FMJ bullets, 2 boxes of
Winchester brass and a set of Lee dies.(Oy vey, such a deal!)

I mounted a Weaver K4 with post reticle of the same vintage on 'er to keep it correct for the period,
and she shoots great with the loads I'm tinkering with. I love this boomer, and it's a keeper for sure.
My previous .458's were a '98 Mauser custom, Remington 700 African and a P14 actioned custom.

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If I get another Marlin 45-70, I would get the 1895 Cowboy. It's so purdy!
:cheers:
 
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darkman said:
It would be nice if someone would make a decent lever in 458 win, or Lott.
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Louis Seecamp while he worked for Marlin, designed a prototype lever rifle that was designed to take up to 458 Win Mag.
Obviously it never got to the full production stage. It was very modern looking with a one piece stock, appeared to have a detachable mag, no external hammer, & scope friendly.
 
Going from the 45/70 hot loaded to the 458 win mag is a similar comparison to 2 3/4 inch steel shot shell to 3 inch steel shot shell. If your not going to jump from 2 3/4 to 3 1/2 its a small difference. If your not going from 45/70 hot loaded straight up to Lott your beating yourself up for precious little gain
 
rimfire458 said:
Going from the 45/70 hot loaded to the 458 win mag is a similar comparison to 2 3/4 inch steel shot shell to 3 inch steel shot shell. If your not going to jump from 2 3/4 to 3 1/2 its a small difference. If your not going from 45/70 hot loaded straight up to Lott your beating yourself up for precious little gain
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The variables are many: It depends on the rifles used, the knowledge, personality, experience and tolerance of the shooter. It depends on the loads, whether they are strictly factory or handloads in each. If handloads, it depends on the knowledge and experience of the handloader and whether he's willing to experiment on his own or stick with loads from manuals.

I have a Ruger #1 in .45-70 with a long throat that is fully equal to a .458 Win Mag in every way shooting my own handloads. Until last year I owned a CZ550 in .458 WM with a 25" barrel, magnum-length magazine (3.75") and very long throat that, when handloaded, would fully equal any .458 Lott!

So, let's define what we're discussing in real life rather than generalities!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca
 
crazy_davey said:
Those are not full house loads. Try reloading the 405's to 1850-1900 fps and then tell us what you think about the recoil in your guide gun. Factory loads are nowhere near that just in case you didn't know.
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Been there, done that, not going there again unless Alzheimer's kicks in early lol. At least not with a conventionally mounted scope! I would rather a 458WM if I want a 400gr in the 2000fps range based on stock design and gun weight alone.
 
leveractionjunkie said:
Been there, done that, not going there again unless Alzheimer's kicks in early lol. At least not with a conventionally mounted scope! I would rather a 458WM if I want a 400gr in the 2000fps range based on stock design and gun weight alone.
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That's a good call friend. Every time I look at the straight wristed buttstock of an older 450 or 45-70 GG my shoulder aches in sympathy.
 
The Guide Gun has a 4 round magazine which gives you five rounds in the rifle versus the bolt gun's 4 rounds (unless you plan on going with a CZ thanks to the cavernous 4 shot magazine). That said, you have a better selection of pointed bulets in a wider range of weights for the 458 than you do for the 45-70. This becomes particularly advantageous when you decide you want to use spitzer bullets. Added bonus is that you can use the 45-70 bullets in the 458 without fear of running into problems. Another check in the 458 column is that most hunters grew us using bolt rifles and are very comfortable with them.

So the Guide Gun is shorter and lighter and wins in the handling and portability department. The Bolt 458 cleans up in lethality, familiarity of platform and range of use. Overall firepower is pretty much a chop pot as, by the time you run the tank down on either the 4 shot bolt gun or the 5 shot lever, the odds that you'll be making any real difference by continuing to pull the trigger are severely diminished.

Now, if I was in the thick stuff sitting over a bait I would absolutely go with the 45-70. I love the 45-70 dearly (i have three) and would love to hammer a bear from a blind or call an elk in on top of me and feed him his breakfast. But if I was wandering about and potentially in more open country shooting out to 200 yards, hands down I would prefer a bolt rifle. If I had to open my safe right now and grab either my Browning 1885 in 45-70 or Ruger #1H in 458 (both wearing iron signts) I would probably lean toward the 1885 because I like the rifle so much (and probably because I only have 500gr FMJ for the 458 right now).

Hell, I don't know. Buy both like the rest of us!
 
I think the bolt can be made more pleasent to shoot, all depends on the stock. I have to agree want that lever wanting to bite your hand on some heavy loads but then again that depends on your hands. I did really like that guide gun when I had one.

My current 45-70 is no.4mk1 Enfield with a custom stock. Those 500gr. cast loads can pretty unpleasant but As a reloader I pretty much control how much I want to endure.
 
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