I have been toying with the idea of converting my 458 wm to a Lott and moving up from 400 gr to 500 gr bullets. Is there actually any real world difference? I'm thinking of doing this to avoid highly compressed loads. However I plan to take this gun to Africa. I'll be able to shoot both wm and Lott but I hear traveling around certain parts of Africa with a rifle and non matching head stamps can lead to problems. For those who hunt and travel Africa what advice can you lend. Ream it out or keep it as a wm? Cape buffalo will be the targeted spieces as well as zebra kudu warthog oryx and wildebeest. I may bring a second gun as well in either 300 wm or 3o/06
458wm to 458 lott (africa)
- Thread starter brybenn
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
With respect to taking more than one rifle, some countries impose a firearm import fee, so which used to run about $200 per gun; not sure what it would be now. Anyway, the additional cost is enough to make the one gun safari a bit more appealing.
If you want the Lott chamber, go for it, but just to cover your bases, have the gunsmith stamp the barrel ".458 Winchester & .458 Lott". With a 350 gr TSX, the 458 will shoot flat enough for plains game, and a 450 or a 500 gr A-Frame is enough to make the buff understand he's undergone a change in status. If you're lucky both bullets will shoot close to the same point of aim.
If you want the Lott chamber, go for it, but just to cover your bases, have the gunsmith stamp the barrel ".458 Winchester & .458 Lott". With a 350 gr TSX, the 458 will shoot flat enough for plains game, and a 450 or a 500 gr A-Frame is enough to make the buff understand he's undergone a change in status. If you're lucky both bullets will shoot close to the same point of aim.
I would turn it into a 458 Lott, thou in today's world with the new powders you shouldn't have the problems they had before. One thing if you are going after Cape Buffalo learn to use your rifle. As far as head stamps it depends where you go, in 5 trips to Namibia and South Africa I've never had my head stamps checked. I've been told by my PH that if you go to Zimbabwe it will be a real problem. Do take a second rifle for plains game as your shots maybe longer then what you can do with a 458.
You know BB that you can buy cases with Lott headstamps.......I personally have never had my ammo checked against rifle markings, but they have always been real big on checking serial numbers. I wouldn't think twice about it, a Lott it would become. I assume you intend to make your brass from some other full length case, hence the concern about headstamps. Well if I were you I'd look me up about 40 Lott cases and use them for travel and make the rest out of whatever you have and use them for everyday shooting.
The Lott is an honest 200 fps better cartridge with 500 gn bullets and the same barrel length...........this does translate into significantly more energy on target and within it's practical ranges, a flatter trajectory. The Lott is a superior cartridge in every aspect to the 458 WM, there just is no two ways about it, and if you have mastered the 458 with full bore 500 gn loads you will have no issue firing the Lott..........
My Rem 700 in 300 Wby (as marked on the barrel) has made several trips to Africa including RSA, Zim and Namibia, and all my ammo has always said "W-W 300 H&H Magnum" on the head stamp and when I fill out my firearm paperwork for the different countries I always just put "300 Magnum"........When in doubt just create confusion and make sure that at least the numbers on the case and barrel match............The easy thing to do would be to take a 375 H&H as your second rifle, then all your headstamps could match the barrel on that rifle even though the bullet end wasn't the same. Believe me those checking such things would never know the difference and with the new 235 or 250 gn loads the old H&H would make a wonderful plains game cartridge.
You can also buy Lott ammo over there and your PH or operator where you will hunt, quite likely has a few boxes of Lott around, as they strongly encourage hunters to leave them any left over ammo after the hunt, and many do.......
The Lott is an honest 200 fps better cartridge with 500 gn bullets and the same barrel length...........this does translate into significantly more energy on target and within it's practical ranges, a flatter trajectory. The Lott is a superior cartridge in every aspect to the 458 WM, there just is no two ways about it, and if you have mastered the 458 with full bore 500 gn loads you will have no issue firing the Lott..........
My Rem 700 in 300 Wby (as marked on the barrel) has made several trips to Africa including RSA, Zim and Namibia, and all my ammo has always said "W-W 300 H&H Magnum" on the head stamp and when I fill out my firearm paperwork for the different countries I always just put "300 Magnum"........When in doubt just create confusion and make sure that at least the numbers on the case and barrel match............The easy thing to do would be to take a 375 H&H as your second rifle, then all your headstamps could match the barrel on that rifle even though the bullet end wasn't the same. Believe me those checking such things would never know the difference and with the new 235 or 250 gn loads the old H&H would make a wonderful plains game cartridge.
You can also buy Lott ammo over there and your PH or operator where you will hunt, quite likely has a few boxes of Lott around, as they strongly encourage hunters to leave them any left over ammo after the hunt, and many do.......
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I was planning on buying Lott cases. My concern was if they didn't arrive and I had to use win mag ammo while I was there. Glad they don't check as close as I've read. Never thought to have both stamped on the gun. That's a good idea. My 458 wm doesn't kick bad at all with factory loads however they were disappointingly slow. Only 1970 fps but my barrel is 25.5". My gun does have a mercury recoil reducer installed. Not sure how much that helps but the stock fits so well it feels a lot less then a 12 ga with buckshot that's for sure. Once my thumb heels up I think I'm going to send it out to be converted.
Or buy a second 458 to convert
My current load drops 5" at 200 yards when zeroed at 100 yards. 405 gr Remington flat nose at 2400 fps. 72 grs h4895 starting load. I haven't played with it out further. I'm betting it drops pretty quickly but I want to switch to woodlieghs pointy 500 gr
Or buy a second 458 to convert
My current load drops 5" at 200 yards when zeroed at 100 yards. 405 gr Remington flat nose at 2400 fps. 72 grs h4895 starting load. I haven't played with it out further. I'm betting it drops pretty quickly but I want to switch to woodlieghs pointy 500 gr
bigborefan
Regular
- Location
- Kawartha Lakes, ON
And where is your proof of that statement? Hornady grants 50 fps more for the Lott firing the same 500gr, and Barnes shows less than 100 for the 450 solid and about 100 for the 450 TSX. The 500 TSX is far too long for either.
My experience has been that at SAAMI I could easily get 2200 fps from the 500 Hornady from my 25" CZ550 and with bullets seated "long" I could duplicate Lott specs at 2300 fps using today's best powders.
At best, the Lott has no more than 100 fps advantage all else equal. That can easily be negated in favour of the .458 Win if the Lott isn't loaded at top psi with the right bullet. I was getting 2750 from the 350 TSX -- about the same as a Lott.
Compare the results from Accurate Reloading. 2200 fps is doable from the right 500s at less than 62000 psi; the same is found in Hodgdon: 2163 fps from the 500 Hor. at 50, 300 cup (59,350 psi) from a 24". H335 and AA2230 are the best powders. I got my results from H335 and WLRM primers in Win cases.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Not at all. If you go to Zimbabwe you are prohibited by Canadian law to take firearms. They consider one turnbolt 458 Lott the same as a shipping container of AKs. You cannot export firearms, even temporarily, to Zimbabwe.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2008-248/FullText.html
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Question #1
Doesn't 13c provide an avenue that allows a big game hunter to apply for a temporary export permit so he can take his personal rifle to Zimbabwe for sporting purposes?
Question #2
When you go back, are you going to rent one of Chifuti's rifles, those Dakotas look pretty nice.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Question #1) Only if you have a DFAIT export permit issued before the coming into force.
Question #2) Last time I rented one of Chifuti's rifles it was a Ruger in "The New King". Next time I'll go to Namibia or Mozambique and take my own rifles.
BBF..........I don't happen to have a Lott or Ackley right at this minute and never took photos of the chronograph tapes back when I did have them (I had the Ackley, which for all intents and purposes is the same cartridge) but I chronographed 500 gn Hornady softs and solids from my 602 with a 26" barrel @ 2550 fps..........fireformed W-W 375 brass, I don't recall the load or powder I was using but I had no pressure signs, no sticky bolt lift, no ejector marks, no flattened primers............I have yet to see a 458 WM that would break 2200 with a 500 Horn even from a 26" barrel. Now having said that, I haven't loaded for a 458 in many years, with new powders better velocities may be possible, but there was a good assortment of powders for the 458 even back 30 years ago. Now I also know the Lott is ever so slightly smaller than the Ackley case which was why I was being conservative in saying 200 fps for the Lott case.
You talk apples to apples pressure wise, and I agree, however I chronographed a box of factory yellow box Win 458 from my Ruger #1 which I think had a 24" barrel......anyway, these loads chronographed at 2170 FPS for 5 rounds.........however 3 of the 5, the primer fell out when I opened the action.........factory loaded 500 gn 458 WM.........My point being that if the factory loads them that hot and they still won't top 2200 from a 24" barrel, the odds of us doing it with over the counter powders is about zero..........and my loads in my 450 Ackley were 100% safe and the cases took 5 or more loads and still held primers............I guess I don't really have any PROOF just my experiences, but no chronograph photos or the like, but lots of guys in Whitehorse who shot my 450 Ackley and can attest to what a hellfire, retina detaching, ugly SOB it was.........and it was in a custom stock made for the recoil, large butt cross section and nice and straight with a very open grip, but 93 ft/lbs of free recoil does tend to move one around a little........
You talk apples to apples pressure wise, and I agree, however I chronographed a box of factory yellow box Win 458 from my Ruger #1 which I think had a 24" barrel......anyway, these loads chronographed at 2170 FPS for 5 rounds.........however 3 of the 5, the primer fell out when I opened the action.........factory loaded 500 gn 458 WM.........My point being that if the factory loads them that hot and they still won't top 2200 from a 24" barrel, the odds of us doing it with over the counter powders is about zero..........and my loads in my 450 Ackley were 100% safe and the cases took 5 or more loads and still held primers............I guess I don't really have any PROOF just my experiences, but no chronograph photos or the like, but lots of guys in Whitehorse who shot my 450 Ackley and can attest to what a hellfire, retina detaching, ugly SOB it was.........and it was in a custom stock made for the recoil, large butt cross section and nice and straight with a very open grip, but 93 ft/lbs of free recoil does tend to move one around a little........
Bring lots of bribe/tip/mild extortion money with you, even after you've already paid the fees. Getting shook down isn't fun at the best of time, but there is a bit of comedic value in it happening in Portugeese. Not bad is you know its coming.
I had some luck in ramming heavily compressed loads of more A2230 than god ever intended into .458 cases, then rushing to kill something before the bullets migrated out of the cartridges by themselves. Very decent speeds could be obtained (2350 with 450 grain A-Frames), and although I had way more fun than the buffalo the reality is its an uphill struggle to make a .458 Win into something it really isn't. Its so much easier to ream it out to .458 Lott, and beat that at a non-compressed idle.
Go with the 450 Ackley. Then you can use 458 WM and Lott in the same chamber. - dan
