45ACP/45Colt Reloads

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JimmieA.

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This could go into the reloading section but I thought it might interest you folks. I have been trying to reload .45ACP for a Ruger Blackhawk Convertable I own. It is .45Colt and has a cylinder for .45ACP as well. One of my issues is the Ruger needs the brass to be the exact size and length to work for the .45ACP. The Ruger uses the brass length to seat the round in the cylinder. I have even had problems with new factory rounds in this gun. I have bought 4900 projectiles now, lead and jacketed, I had a bunch of these before of these I know that 500 will work in the Ruger. I reloaded 100 today that would not work. These will work fine in a semi auto but I don't like looking for brass in the snow. The first issue is plated bullets of .452 will not work (at least for me) in .45ACP. They will squish the brass when I press them in to the correct length, I even tried oiling the projectile first. I have had problems with .451 plated as well but not as bad. The .452 plated will slide in with your fingers into a .45Colt brass. In .45Colt you crimp the projectile to seat it but I don't crimp a ACP round. In a .45ACP round with lead I think it should be .452 and I think the lead should be .454 for the Colt round. The .452 lead in .45ACP will cause issues with treads of lead coming off the projectile even with the brass belled. I jammed up the 1911 because of these lead treads. The only projectile that works in the .45ACP that I have found is labeled SWC, it has a cone that is smaller than the calibre so the end of the brass sits in the proper slot in the Ruger.

Long story short if you think you want a .45ACP revolver go for a S&W 25 or 625, pass on the Ruger. I had a 625 and sold it, bad mistake. The .45 Colt round is lots of fun though, like it a lot so the Ruger is good for that. If you think about reloading .45ACP I hope you don't have the issues I have been having. Part of the problem is the makers of the projectiles do not label them well, some don't even have their size (say .452) on the box. The projectiles that have a little crimp ring I would say are for .45 Colt not .45ACP all they say is 45 calibre.

If someone wants to add wisdom to help me/set me straight I have no issues with that. I just wanted to present this issue for the members here.
 
BALONEY= you're not doing it right- add the FACTORY SIZING DIE made by lee to your set- up- I've got the same set- up and use nothing but 45 200 grain LEAD SWCS - same load as my 45 acp colt government- I used plated bullets one time and had the jacket come off in the tube, so now it's either proper jacketed or lead- most of the time LEAD- that's what the acp / colt round is designed for and it works well- as far as the labelling goes- most bullet makers mike out for 452 and 45 colt can be all the way from 451 to 454- of course OILING the bullet doesn't work - it's not SUPPOSED TO- I've been reloading for 40 years plus and NEVER even heard of that- the reason your bullets are crushing your case mouth is that it's not expanded enough or not chamfered- for me, the OBVIOUS thing would be to CHANGE BULLETS first and then see if it goes away- as far as the reasoning on your bullet diameter goes, I can tell you for a fact that ruger uses a 452 in ALL their pistols, acp, 45 colt, old army, and so do most manufacturers- only the really old guns use a 454
 
I have a brand new Lee carbide three die set. That is what I'm using. I even used new brass this time (.45ACP) with the jacketed .452 projectiles and they crumpled the brass. If I use expensive(Hornby) jacketed .451 projectiles and do not push them too far in they will be OK but not work in the Ruger. If I use lead .452 it works alright except for a tread of lead coming off most rounds(.45ACP). I do bell the end, possible not enough, but on the down stroke the brass hits the die fairly hard(.45ACP). I tried oiling one jacketed projectile to see if that helped, it isn't something I do, or want to do as a normal procedure. Part of the problem I think is I have been using Cactus Plains lead and it maybe too soft, it is RNFP and they have a groove for crimping(I'm thinking this must be a .45Colt round). This time I bought some expensive Hornby round nose lead, see how that works. The Ruger gun isn't a great setup. I also have a 9mm Ruger convertable, it is better but not great. When you put new factory rounds in and they do not work there must be an issue I think. The 200 grain lead SWC is the only projectile I have found that will work in the Ruger. I push the lead in so only the cone is exposed but the solid lead is flush with the brass. The issue with the Ruger .45ACP revolver is two things. The lead of the projectile will fetch up on that little ridge that should stop the bullet at the right depth and the bullet will not go in far enough, and with the .452 jacketed round the bullet seems to be too big and will not go in nearly far enough. The reloaded jacketed projectile will not work at all in the Ruger the lead will work especially with the SWC round. These are mostly issues with the Ruger revolver but I have had issues with my 1911. I reload 9mm, 38S/357, 40/10mm, 45 ACP/45Colt and 44 mag. The only one that is an issue right now is the .45 ACP. I just about gave up on the .45ACP Ruger revolver until I found the SWC lead. I had been buying round nose projectiles (like 4400 rounds) because I thought they were best for a 1911. I think I have this battle basically beat, it has been a struggle but I'm on the home stretch. I have around 1500 jacketed .452 projectiles but they work great in the .45Colt so that is where they will go. I really like the .45Colt. I have 2000 .452 lead projectiles RNFP but they have a lip for crimping so they don't want to work in the 1911 as well as I would like.
I am using a Lee 3 hole Turret press, a manual press not a progressive.

Thanks for your comments.
 
Either your dies are defective or you are not flaring the mouth of the .45ACP brass enough to accept the bullets. I can see stretching the brass but there's just no way that it should crumple the mouth of the case if you're getting a good enough flare.

The other possible issue might be your brass. If it's got overly thick walls then when you size it the mouth may be too small. Have you tried some other brass?

As for seating to the mouth of the casing this is normal. So if even factory ammo isn't seating deeply enough then you need to get the cylinder fixed under the Ruger "happy customer plan". It's either too small in diameter so it's pinching the rounds before they headspace or the shoulder isn't far enough ahead due to faulty chambering. Either way this is clearly a factory quality issue and Ruger is good about fixing stuff like this.

I'd start by measuring the mouth of a dozen or so freshly sized casings. See if the opening produced is smaller than .448 to .450. I can't see needing more than .002 worth of neck tension but either way it sure as heck shouldn't be more then .004.
 
For best results in any cal ACP (taper crimp)
you need to seat to length in one operation
Crimp in a separate (last operation)

it will reduce or elimiate the lead shaving
 
t-star said:
BALONEY= you're not doing it right- add the FACTORY SIZING DIE made by lee to your set- up- I've got the same set- up and use nothing but 45 200 grain LEAD SWCS - same load as my 45 acp colt government- I used plated bullets one time and had the jacket come off in the tube, so now it's either proper jacketed or lead- most of the time LEAD- that's what the acp / colt round is designed for and it works well- as far as the labelling goes- most bullet makers mike out for 452 and 45 colt can be all the way from 451 to 454- of course OILING the bullet doesn't work - it's not SUPPOSED TO- I've been reloading for 40 years plus and NEVER even heard of that- the reason your bullets are crushing your case mouth is that it's not expanded enough or not chamfered- for me, the OBVIOUS thing would be to CHANGE BULLETS first and then see if it goes away- as far as the reasoning on your bullet diameter goes, I can tell you for a fact that ruger uses a 452 in ALL their pistols, acp, 45 colt, old army, and so do most manufacturers- only the really old guns use a 454
Click to expand...

Be Calm T Star the guy is just asking for help.

JimmieA does the gun load and work ok with factory loaded ammo?

Graydog
 
Check that you are running the correct expander. I have a set of Lee 45ACP dies that came with the wrong expander. Was crushing cases left right and center trying to seat bullets until I realize what the problem was. The expander was too short to cause sufficient case mouth expansion.
A new powder through expanding die solved the problem. Don't know what came with the original die set, a reject or an expander for some other 45 cal round.

M
 
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gnmontey said:
Check that you are running the correct expander. I have a set of Lee 45ACP dies that came with the wrong expander. Was crushing cases left right and center trying to seat bullets until I realize what the problem was. The expander was too short to cause sufficient case mouth expansion.
A new powder through expanding die solved the problem. Don't know what came with the original die set, a reject or an expander for some other 45 cal round.

M
Click to expand...

I have a Lee powder through expander die. It is similar to other dies I have for other calibers. The brass is for sure being expanded (belled at the tip) and on the down stroke the brass hits the die, doesn't want to come out actually. I have bought 500 new starline brass and I used at least some of these in the case crushing exercise. If I use the Hornby jacketed projectiles and I seat them properly you can see a bulge in the brass that is the size of the projectile. I don't crimp .45ACP bullets. I crimp .45Colt, they have a new Lee 4 die set.

I have a bunch of fancy machinist tools like mikes and calibrated shims. I will test out my caliper and make sure it is accurate. I think it is but who knows. The Hornby projectiles should be good, they are expensive as all get out. I could see the cast lead projectiles being off but I would expect Hornby to be better. These are hollow point XTP projectiles part # 45100. Cost me $25/100 USD.

The last time I had this gun out it would not fire a few new factory loads. I will take this gun out again with two different factory made bullets I have and test it out. If it doesn't shoot every factory bullet 100% than I will consider going back to Ruger. I bought the gun in Alberta so that maybe a PITA. These guns are hard to come by and this gun is one of these Ruger Dealer exclusives.
http://www.lipseysguns.com/post/Ruger-Blackhawk-Flattop-45-Colt-45-ACP-Convertible.aspx

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will run out to the range and give this sucker a test and get back to you-all.
 
the factory sizing die isn't part of the 3 die set- it's sold separately- what I did was use a spare turret with only the one hole filled, after I had manufactured the round- as for cactus plains , they have a hardness of about 1400 or so, so that's plenty hard enough-as far as having a ring of lead coming off when you're seating, that tells you right there that there's NOT ENOUGH flare or bell- lead is much more forgiving that plated or jacketed
you want just enough flare to seat the bullet without taking that rim off, but not so loose that you can shove the bullet deeper with your fingers

that "heel " you're speaking of is a grease groove- I've got it on my 45acp swc ls - 2 of them- the only difference between the 45 colt bullets and the 45 acp is the weight as far as cactus plains is concerned- they both measure 452- I can use either in the 45 colt, but the 250 is for the ruger only- there's NO NEED to shoot anything other than lead in any of the 45s unless you're a speed demon or don't like cleaning your guns
now if you want to return it to ruger, ( last resort) the contact is snapshots , attn. carole petrie- he/she( i'm not sure which) takes care of all the warranty for ruger
a copy of your bill of sale showing the date and dealer will be sufficient for warranty purposes across Canada- where you run into fun is getting warranty for American guns in Canada and vice versa.
 
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Well I just got back from the range. Not a great story but happy ending I guess. It was -12 or so outside, not great weather. The pin that holds the cylinder in place would not stay in and the cylinder was loose at one point. It was an issue of too cold as in the warm it is fine. Lucky I didn't wreck the gun with the cylinder loose like that, of course I fired maybe 18 shots or more like this. I eventually figured out what was wrong and than how to fix it. All the .45ACP bullets I had with me worked in the gun no issue so this is good news. The gun is fairly new. The gun was shooting way to the right and way low, like 6 inch each. I see now that the sight is not even centred in the holder and must be set to shoot low as well. Need to bring the right screwdriver next time out. I have not loaded the .45 Colt hot but that round makes a very satisfactory kick and loud report. I shot factory Remington and Winchester .45ACP plus the SWC loads that I made up. All worked well. As a side note I checked my caliper against the calibration samples I have. It is a box of 50 true measure test samples. The caliper is as good as can be expected, maybe 1 needle width off on say a .85 inch test. I measured these Hornby projectiles and they are .451 and the others I have are .452 so that is good. I guess the only issue I have left to figure out is the crinkled .45ACP brass using the plated projectiles. I know the expander die goes inside the brass maybe 1/3 of an inch and it is belling the edge of the brass. I'll work on this issue some more but I have 250 rounds made up that I can't use so I'm not making any more for now. I have another set of .45ACP dies from someone else so I might try those and see what happens.

Thanks everyone for the responses.
 
Well, the gun appears to be fine. You're still left with the crumpled brass though.

The nose of the expander in the powder thru dies should both measure the same diameters. So that would be one thing to check.

The only other issue is to get a factory taper crimp die to use for the .45acp. You say that you're not crimping the acp, just seating the bullets. But the left over flare at the mouth would prevent the proper seating if the flare rubs hard on the chamber walls. But if you don't flare enough then the bullets won't fit in easily and you catch the mouth and crumple the casing. So you DO NEED to crimp the .45acp. It's just that you want to go real easy with the regular roll crimp die or you want to use a separate factor crimp die and run the crimp in a separate station or operation from the seating.

If you get a factory taper crimp die you can "fix" the already loaded .45acp by just running them through the proper crimp step. Use the .45acp cylinder from your Blackhawk as a drop test guage. The rounds should fall into place with a nice firm "click" at the end of the travel and when the cylinder is turned up they should glide out like a fresh caught fish off a wet board.
 
you're still not stuck with those 250 rounds- get yourself a bullet puller if you haven't got one and disassemble- a few whacks unseats the bullet, or use a collet type- you NEED to have one of these anyway- then separate the bullet from the powder, dump the powder back in the SAME CAN as you got it from and PRESS OUT the primer- or fire it, your choice
as for the point of aim, I had to take some meat off the front sight before I could get it to shoot right - even in 45 colt- I compared it to both my old army(457) and my 44 mag redhawk- both were substantially LOWER that that thing that sits on top of the combo-your screwdrivers won't help
I speak from experience-
 
t-star said:
you're still not stuck with those 250 rounds- get yourself a bullet puller if you haven't got one and disassemble- a few whacks unseats the bullet, or use a collet type- you NEED to have one of these anyway- then separate the bullet from the powder, dump the powder back in the SAME CAN as you got it from and PRESS OUT the primer- or fire it, your choice
as for the point of aim, I had to take some meat off the front sight before I could get it to shoot right - even in 45 colt- I compared it to both my old army(457) and my 44 mag redhawk- both were substantially LOWER that that thing that sits on top of the combo-your screwdrivers won't help
I speak from experience-
Click to expand...

I have a bullet puller, two actually as the first one I bought didn't come with the 4 collets or what ever their called so had to buy a second one, oops! The trouble with these 250 rounds is for a few different reasons they will not work in the Ruger. The rounds with the plated bullets do not go down far enough into the cylinder by a long way, the lead bullets have a small ridge of lead (after the crimp in the projectile) and they will not seat correctly by a small margin. I have a Ruger P90 and it will eat these rounds. I doubt that the 1911 will eat some of them.

The .45ACP and the .45 Colt both shoot low and to the right, the ACP is better though. It was getting better near the end, 100+ rounds but I was getting cold. I was putting the top sight higher than flat across the back sight. Do you re-blue the metal on the sight after you remove some? I agree that the front sight is awful tall. I am currently only shooting at 10 yards sitting on a bench but with out a rest just the bench surface.

BCRider: The ACP projectiles are much tighter than the .45 Colt rounds in the brass. The seating die will crimp if you set it up to do that but there is no need IMHO. Also if the crimp curls the brass at all than the Ruger wouldn't be able to use the edge of the brass to seat the round correctly. Than the firing pin will not contact the primer. There is no left over flare when the bullet is seated with these dies. Actually you can see the shape of the jacketed bullets easily which is an issue in the Ruger.

I measured a (pulled the bullet out) Winchester new factory projectile out of a round in their box. It came in a .450 so that could explain my trouble but the books I have say .451 for the ACP.
 
That curl of lead thing is something I ran into as well when I tried some cast lead loads on the old three position Lee press. I've since sold that Lee to a buddy to use for his own loading and on my Dillon 4 position I'll be using a factory taper crimp die that ONLY crimps to get around that issue.

But like you I've got around 200 of them that are only useable in one 1911 and not the other. Which is fine, I'll just shoot them with that gun. And it sounds like you have a gun that you can use yours in as well. So I'd just set them aside to use later on when you don't mind bending down and are not at risk of losing your brass in the snow.

I would not put much faith in the size of pulled bullets other than as an indicator of what you are trying to get to. Factories taper crimp their ammo to get the outsides down to what the specs call for. And a taper crimp die can put a lot of pressure onto the outside and thus swage the bullet inside down to a smaller diameter. It's highly likely that those bullets started out as .452's and got swaged down by the taper crimp operation to .450. Is there a little telltale ring around these smaller size pulled bullets where the edge of the case mouth was located?

The good news is that other than the lead rounds with the plowed up ring around the mouth you can "save" the others by running them through a factory crimp die to squeeze then down a touch. Just set up the depth of the taper until the rounds test drop into the chambers of the guns you want to use that ammo in.

As for your bullet fit you need to run some measurements. My buddy that got my old Lee loaded .45Colt for his cowboy action shooting. The funny thing was that the .45Colt dies left the brass a little larger than my .45acp dies did. So like you we found that a bullet would thumb fit fairly easily in the sized but not flared .45Colt casings but needed a press to fit in the .45acp sized but not flared brass. The necking and flairing arbors in the powder dies were the same but on my acp brass it needed some pressure to fit even before the flare where on the .45Colt brass it was a loose drop in fit until the flaring taper was reached. This was only a little to the tune of around .002 difference. But it makes for a BIG difference in seating tension. So measure up your dies and sized brass to see if you're getting this as well.

Keep in mind too that you have to flare the acp at least a little so the bullet will go in without catching and crumpling the casing. And that you have to crimp just enough to remove that flare even if you don't want the mouth to noticeably turn in. Otherwise you can't say that there's no flare left. And just about any flare at all, or an overly fat round due to the bullet being oversize, will cause the acp to pinch against the side wall instead of dropping neatly down to the headspacing shoulder.

A couple of nits since I don't know you or how you reload. You did edge the mouths of the new brass with the case prep tools? The burr left from making the brass will often mess up loads done with cast lead bullets.

If you only have a three hole press or if you don't want to buy or can't find a factory taper crimp for the .45acp then you can still load cast bullets for this. But I'd add a last step to the loading. Start with the seating/crimping die set out so it doesn't try to close up the flare. Set the seating depth to seat but not crimp the bullets. Load 'em all. then go back and work in single stage operation to crimp but not seat the bullets. This just means backing off the seater or even removing it altogether and set the outer die down to provide the crimp. Check your die to see if it's a factory crimp which implies that it's taper crimping. Some Lee sets came with this. Others just roll crimp. If your die is a roll style crimp you can still crimp enough to remove the flare that you NEED. You just want to barely crimp and measure so that the mouth is the same diameter or within .002 to .003 smaller than the portion about 1/16 below the mouth. You shouldn't see an obvious rolling in sort of crimp. Then test fit this in the Ruger's cylinder. If it doesn't drop in with a CLICK and slide out just as easily then you really need to find a factor taper crimp die.

Another option would be to get a spare sizing die and remove the de-capper and final size all your .45acp ammo. That'll both remove any residual flare and at the same time it'll squeeze the rounds down to the proper spec. This will likely be a pretty firm sort of fit so you'll probably want to lube the cases by rolling them on a cloth pad that has been lightly sprayed with case lube.

If you have some rounds that don't fit now and which are simply "fat" rather than having the plowed up ring of lead you could quickly remove the de-capper pin from your present die and try this "fix". If this works for you then look at finding a spare die you can use for post sizing.

Hey, no one said reloading wouldn't have SOME days like this.... :D
 
I have figured out the issue.

The Lee bullet seating die is tapered. I was placing the die to deep into the press and this was squeezing the brass closed before the projectile was seated to it's depth. The tendency is to have the die positioned so that it is close to touching the upward ram at it's top stroke. I backed this die out some and moved the bullet press part up and down to suit the proper length. Seems simple to figure out one you have the answer. I tried one of the .452 jacketed projectiles and no issue.

Thanks for your help everyone. The internet is good for some things.
 
BCRider said:
That curl of lead thing is something I ran into as well when I tried some cast lead loads on the old three position Lee press. I've since sold that Lee to a buddy to use for his own loading and on my Dillon 4 position I'll be using a factory taper crimp die that ONLY crimps to get around that issue.

But like you I've got around 200 of them that are only useable in one 1911 and not the other. Which is fine, I'll just shoot them with that gun. And it sounds like you have a gun that you can use yours in as well. So I'd just set them aside to use later on when you don't mind bending down and are not at risk of losing your brass in the snow.

I would not put much faith in the size of pulled bullets other than as an indicator of what you are trying to get to. Factories taper crimp their ammo to get the outsides down to what the specs call for. And a taper crimp die can put a lot of pressure onto the outside and thus swage the bullet inside down to a smaller diameter. It's highly likely that those bullets started out as .452's and got swaged down by the taper crimp operation to .450. Is there a little telltale ring around these smaller size pulled bullets where the edge of the case mouth was located?

The good news is that other than the lead rounds with the plowed up ring around the mouth you can "save" the others by running them through a factory crimp die to squeeze then down a touch. Just set up the depth of the taper until the rounds test drop into the chambers of the guns you want to use that ammo in.

As for your bullet fit you need to run some measurements. My buddy that got my old Lee loaded .45Colt for his cowboy action shooting. The funny thing was that the .45Colt dies left the brass a little larger than my .45acp dies did. So like you we found that a bullet would thumb fit fairly easily in the sized but not flared .45Colt casings but needed a press to fit in the .45acp sized but not flared brass. The necking and flairing arbors in the powder dies were the same but on my acp brass it needed some pressure to fit even before the flare where on the .45Colt brass it was a loose drop in fit until the flaring taper was reached. This was only a little to the tune of around .002 difference. But it makes for a BIG difference in seating tension. So measure up your dies and sized brass to see if you're getting this as well.

Keep in mind too that you have to flare the acp at least a little so the bullet will go in without catching and crumpling the casing. And that you have to crimp just enough to remove that flare even if you don't want the mouth to noticeably turn in. Otherwise you can't say that there's no flare left. And just about any flare at all, or an overly fat round due to the bullet being oversize, will cause the acp to pinch against the side wall instead of dropping neatly down to the headspacing shoulder.

A couple of nits since I don't know you or how you reload. You did edge the mouths of the new brass with the case prep tools? The burr left from making the brass will often mess up loads done with cast lead bullets.

If you only have a three hole press or if you don't want to buy or can't find a factory taper crimp for the .45acp then you can still load cast bullets for this. But I'd add a last step to the loading. Start with the seating/crimping die set out so it doesn't try to close up the flare. Set the seating depth to seat but not crimp the bullets. Load 'em all. then go back and work in single stage operation to crimp but not seat the bullets. This just means backing off the seater or even removing it altogether and set the outer die down to provide the crimp. Check your die to see if it's a factory crimp which implies that it's taper crimping. Some Lee sets came with this. Others just roll crimp. If your die is a roll style crimp you can still crimp enough to remove the flare that you NEED. You just want to barely crimp and measure so that the mouth is the same diameter or within .002 to .003 smaller than the portion about 1/16 below the mouth. You shouldn't see an obvious rolling in sort of crimp. Then test fit this in the Ruger's cylinder. If it doesn't drop in with a CLICK and slide out just as easily then you really need to find a factor taper crimp die.

Another option would be to get a spare sizing die and remove the de-capper and final size all your .45acp ammo. That'll both remove any residual flare and at the same time it'll squeeze the rounds down to the proper spec. This will likely be a pretty firm sort of fit so you'll probably want to lube the cases by rolling them on a cloth pad that has been lightly sprayed with case lube.

If you have some rounds that don't fit now and which are simply "fat" rather than having the plowed up ring of lead you could quickly remove the de-capper pin from your present die and try this "fix". If this works for you then look at finding a spare die you can use for post sizing.

Hey, no one said reloading wouldn't have SOME days like this.... :D
Click to expand...

You have the answer here but I was down making reloads and didn't read it till just now. Basically do the bullet seating to correct depth then screw in the die more and crimp the brass tighter if it is necessary. Thanks.
 
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