First hand knowledge preferred.Was the 5.56 a better manstopper with the old 55gr 1-12 twist? Or as they increased bullet weight and twist a better fight stopper? IMO it just increased penetration.Lots of stories of bad guys taking several heavy ball rounds to the chest and continuing to return fire for quite some time.
5.56 lethality with various bullet weights
- Thread starter mbogo3
- Start date
Never personally used on 2 legged varmints... (though watching the news these days... maybe sooner than later).
That said, based on my research (high speed gel test videos and documented cases) and lots of personal experience on 4 legged critters, out to 300 yards of so, my pick, hands down is the 75 and 77 grain heavy OTM. These rounds have devastating terminal performance. One or 2 of these in the chest cavity... should result in an IMMEDIATE change in behavior.
You will want to fire these with a 1:8 or faster barrel, though a 1:9 may work with the 75.
That said, based on my research (high speed gel test videos and documented cases) and lots of personal experience on 4 legged critters, out to 300 yards of so, my pick, hands down is the 75 and 77 grain heavy OTM. These rounds have devastating terminal performance. One or 2 of these in the chest cavity... should result in an IMMEDIATE change in behavior.
You will want to fire these with a 1:8 or faster barrel, though a 1:9 may work with the 75.
I realize it is not a round to defeat car bodies and such.For soft unobstructed targets basically.From what I have read the 55gr would tumble on target but wasn't great on shooting through cane and brush.The Soviet 5.56x39 made it's bullet with an air pocket in the base and a ROT that just stabilized it so it would keyhole on impact.I remember SOF brought the first AK74 out of Afghanistan and presented it to the CIA.It had a reputation for horrific wounds.
Cameron SS
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Define manstopper.
Define fight stopper.
Define quite some time.
55 gr with 1-12 twist is not an old idea.
The 5.56 round adopted for common service by Nato countries in the 60s-80s was generally a 64 gr bullet in a 20" barrel. The intended target was a soldier clad in soft armour and steel helmet, so penetration was a significant factor in performance.
The trend in the last 25 years has been towards progressively shorter barrels as combat moved away from the jungles of korea and vietnam and towards the dense urban environments of somalia, and iraq.
Anecdotal evidence from soldiers regarding failure of the round to immediately incapacitate are ipso facto unscientific and have not generally been supported by lab research.
In practice, the ability for a one shot stop is highly dependant on shot placement. Variations of milimeters can be the difference between passing between ribs and causing significant organ damage or deflecting off the bone amd causing grave, but less immediately incapacitating trauma.
Any average loss in probability of instant murder/death/kill has to be weighed against the fact that shorter barrels usually mean more agility in close quarters. The smaller cartridge of m223 was chosen over .308 for a variety of factors including being able to carry more ammunition.
The fact that we are hearing so many stories about people who survived gun fights with these observations tells you they are still winning the gun fight.
The question isnt how many rounds does it take to kill a drug adled insurgent, but how many good guys died because the round couldnt instant/murder death kill, and if thats an unacceptable number, is there a better firearm, barrel, twist, cartridge bullet weight that provide a net reduction in that number.
After 40 years of service and study the jury is still out.
At the end of the day, shot placement matters. The first person who scores good hits on target typically wins the gun fight.
Cameron SS
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You seem to be implying that all 55 gr projectiles have the same construction and effects on impact, regardless of impact velocity. That is obviously not the case.
Looks like the 1-12 came in in 64 changed from the 1-14 Stoner started with.Define ...........define pick a fight elsewhere.A fight stopper means the target is unable to continue fighting after a well placed hit in the kill zone..First hand experience relayed from some of the boys with the Princess Patricia.We're not talking SP ammo that actually expands and kills quickly like on 200lb deer or black bear.Yes it works one rd per customer if you can shoot.
DaveMachine
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Lots of good options but it all depends on the parameters you have to work with. I keep a few boxes of Federal Fusion MSR 62GR myself.
I have no experience with 1:12 and 55gr but 62gr in 1:7 works good.
It has a lot to do with shot placement and a lot can affect it:
-moving target
-target shooting back at you
-less than ideal shooting position
-unknown distance
-lack of a perfect opportunity to properly engage in a "kill zone"
-piss poor marksmanship
Bartok may or not remember it but I remember getting a threat warning back in 2008 that a somewhat important bomb maker was observed in the area and was shot during one of our firefights. The guy was shot in the head and he was walking around with part of his skull missing. Scary ############ before the headshot but even scarier after that. He died a week or so later from infection.
Just like hunting, if you disconnect the brain or blow up the heart, a 5.56 will kill instantly just like other calibers. But just like other calibers, if you miss the kill zones, its going to be painful, make you bleed and possibly bleed out or not.
One of the reasons for the "many rounds to the chest" is the way some armies/units train: you shoot until the target is no longer a threat aka dead. The more you aerate your target, the less likely it will come back. Even with bigger calibers, at CQB distance, a one shot one kill is unlikely and even then, the shooter will shoot more than one round before the target hits the ground. Better safe than sorry, more is better.
It has a lot to do with shot placement and a lot can affect it:
-moving target
-target shooting back at you
-less than ideal shooting position
-unknown distance
-lack of a perfect opportunity to properly engage in a "kill zone"
-piss poor marksmanship
Bartok may or not remember it but I remember getting a threat warning back in 2008 that a somewhat important bomb maker was observed in the area and was shot during one of our firefights. The guy was shot in the head and he was walking around with part of his skull missing. Scary ############ before the headshot but even scarier after that. He died a week or so later from infection.
Just like hunting, if you disconnect the brain or blow up the heart, a 5.56 will kill instantly just like other calibers. But just like other calibers, if you miss the kill zones, its going to be painful, make you bleed and possibly bleed out or not.
One of the reasons for the "many rounds to the chest" is the way some armies/units train: you shoot until the target is no longer a threat aka dead. The more you aerate your target, the less likely it will come back. Even with bigger calibers, at CQB distance, a one shot one kill is unlikely and even then, the shooter will shoot more than one round before the target hits the ground. Better safe than sorry, more is better.
Short Barrel 5.56mm = RUAG Styx, Specially designed for extreme expansion and fragmentation from 8.9" barrels (SG552 / SG553).
Nothing else in the world works like it. Take advantage of millions of Swiss Francs in research and development by the Swiss Government.
Rich
Nothing else in the world works like it. Take advantage of millions of Swiss Francs in research and development by the Swiss Government.
Rich
Donny Fenn1
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Well that and the fact the 30s were all developed in the late 1800s when the scariest thing on the battlefield was mounted cavalry. When you stop having to take down moose sized animals you can shrink the size of the cartridge to current standards. Of course having a war every 15 to 20 years limits cartridge development which could be why the intermediate sized cartridges didn't start appearing in great numbers until Korea?
rommelrommel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Like, are you just wanting to compare M855/M855A1 and M193?
Cuz if not 5.56 terminal effect depends so much on range, length of barrel, possible armor/other barriers, and design of bullet that it’s hard to say much about what bullet weight is the most lethal.
Cuz if not 5.56 terminal effect depends so much on range, length of barrel, possible armor/other barriers, and design of bullet that it’s hard to say much about what bullet weight is the most lethal.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/arti...ved-a-shot-from-a-50-cal-at-point-blank-range
This Marine survived a 50 cal shot. I don't think he was functional afterwards, but there is nothing that guarantees anything unless it is a bomb that blow things into absolute pieces!
This Marine survived a 50 cal shot. I don't think he was functional afterwards, but there is nothing that guarantees anything unless it is a bomb that blow things into absolute pieces!
Cameron SS
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You said:Ugh, not implying that at all. What are you implying that I was implying?
By issuing this statement without qualification You are implying that ALL 55 gr bullets have the same effect inside of 200 m. Regardless of other variables.
Totally agree with your intent here, but having seen several bombs go off, I can tell you that even with bombs nothing is certain. Some people walk away from bombs only to die of seemingly superficial injuries days later, while others survive the most horrific injuries and dismemberment.
Its hard not to be exposed to any degree of injuries of that nature without developing some sense of fatalism or belief in a higher power.
This is an odd statement for a marine.
1st, the notion that a tumbling round would have been better for his medical outcome rather than as clean a pass through as a 50.bmg round, probably an APM2, is completely counter-intuitive.
2nd, the idea that the round continues to accelerate any significant degree more than a few feet from the barrel is also simply not accurate.
3rd, thinking that the bullet hitting him at a higher velocity is would have been better for him is also not in keeping with a general understanding of terminal ballistics.
The military has never been a good source of factual information, about anything.
Buddy of mine in CF told me once that bullets climb up in the air after they leave the muzzle because they spin...
Or if a 50bmg misses you, it will take your arm off still...
Cameron SS
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They climb on the breeze with little hands and feet that pop out after shedding their sabot, do they?
Yeah amusing to say the least. Not that some people hold these ridiculous beliefs, but how persistent they can be.
