.50-60 Peabody rifle ... centerfire conversion?

Although not mentioned in my original post, the 3000 Canadian-issue Peabody rifles were acquired in 1866 on a rather "emergency" basis (along with an even greater quantity of .56-.50 Spencer rifles and carbines) in the face of a threat of military invasion by the original "Irish Republican Army" of the US-based Fenian Brotherhood. :runaway:

At that time, the British Army and Canadian Militia were both armed with the muzzle-loading .577 caliber Enfield rifle, with the Snider breech system for conversion of those frontstuffers to breechloaders just in the process of being approved (though such conversions did not begin in Britain until October 1866, if I recall correctly.) It was felt that something more effective than muzzle-loaders was needed, but the situation was too urgent to wait for Snider-Enfields, which were going to be the "new" rifles for British and Empire troops, at least for the immediate future. (The first Snider-Enfields did not reach Canada until well into 1867, in fact ...)

It seems to make sense in such circumstances (at least to our present-day mindset, and in hindsight) that it would be considered advisable to have the barrel specifications of these "stopgap" breechloaders made to a size and configuration to accept the existing Pattern 1853 Enfield socket bayonets - which were to continue in use with the Snider conversions, in any event. However, I am familiar enough with various 19th century acquisitions of firearms and other military equipment to know that such "practical considerations" were not actually applied in practice all that often. :rolleyes:

According to David Edgecombe's "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955" the Peabody contract called for 3000 rifles equipped with bayonets. It seems highly unlikely that any existing Peabody design specifications would have included a barrel contour and front sight/bayonet lug combination identical to the British P'1853 Enfield rifle. In view of the "rush" nature of the contract for these rifles - which, for example, were somewhat reluctantly accepted in the existing .50-60 rimfire chambering which the Providence Tool Company was already set up to manufacture - I think it has long been assumed that an existing "on the shelf" design was rushed into production to fill this order. No details of the Peabody bayonets are given in David's book (or elsewhere that I can recall seeing), but one would normally think that the mere fact bayonets were also included in the order actually tends to suggest that existing British bayonets wouldn't fit these rifles ...

That is why it is quite surprising - at least to me - to discover that the outside dimensions and sight/lug configuration of these .50 caliber Peabody barrels actually duplicate those of the .577 caliber British Enfield rifle so closely that the standard British bayonet fits "to a tee" like this. :eek:

I do recall that David Edgecombe's research indicates that the end price negotiated for the Peabody rifles was actually significantly less than the amount at first quoted for each rifle and bayonet. I am now wondering whether arrangements might possibly have been made for changes in the Peabody barrel specifications so that bayonets could be eliminated from the order ... :confused: At any rate, I have sent off an e-mail to David for his reaction and comments ...
 
Grant,
I bought the .50/70 dies, brass and mould from Buffalo Arms a year or two back, great treatment and products, very happy with them. I have moulds from 300 grains up through 650 grains if you have a need for something else, you too Brian.
Rob
 
Rob:

I've also dealt with Buffalo Arms a few times in the past, and concur fully with your assessmnt of the experience! I thing I read that the proprietor (Dave Gullo?) is actually an expatriate Canuck ....

Good to know you have all those bullet options - I'll keep that in mind! ;)
 
The Canadian Peabody bayonet , same as US M1855, is shown in "British & Commonwealth Bayonets", Skennerton. The barrel profile is the same as the US M1861 rifle musket which Providence Tool Co had been producing and the bands and butt plate are the same. This allowed PTC to use existing machinery. The US rifle muskets were heavily influenced by the P53 Enfield. US Major Mordechai had prepared a report on European arms for US Army in 1855.
Of a eight P53 bayonets tried only one fit a Peabody.
 
I've heard back from Dave Edgecombe, who advises:

1. The sockets of the Enfield Pattern 1853 bayonet, US Model 1855 bayonet and the Peabody bayonet are, in fact, essentially the same so that, generally speaking, they will interchange among the rifles. He reminded me about Webster's "American Socket Bayonets, 1717-1873" (Historical Arms Series #3) which I had forgotten to consult - having now done so, I note that the critical common measurement given therein (inside diameter, front of socket) is 25/32" for all three of these bayonets.

2. The records confirm that the Providence Tool Co. did indeed supply bayonets with the Peabody rifles, though without scabbards. The records further show that British Pattern 1842 scabbards were requisitioned from WD stores for these bayonets.

3. This indicates that the bayonets provided were almost certainly of the US Model 1855 pattern (which had an 18" blade which fits nicely in the P'1842 scabbard) rather than the standard Peabody bayonet having a 21" blade, which wouldn't have fit ....

I must say that it was quite surprising to discover that, during the mid-Nineteenth century, there was this degree of standardization among these different bayonet patterns. I do certainly realize that this was the dawn of "assembly line" machine-production processes, and that efforts were definitely being made toward interchangeability of parts and components in a particular production model of firearm (or other manufactured item). Thus, at this time, one would expect a P'53 bayonet to fit any Enfield 3-band rifle, a US M'1855 bayonet to fit any Springfield rifle, and so on. I also understand that the Enfield specs may have been virtually copied for the Springfield rifle, and in turn the Providence Tool Company may have been trying to match such Springfield specs as the barrel contour and sight/lug dimensions and location. However, to see such bayonet interchangeability between totally different designs, produced at different factories - even in different countries - seems quite amazing to me, for that time frame.

After all, this was at most two or three decades after complete hand-fitting was the rule, so that even with a supposedly standardized weapon (the Brown Bess musket, say) a bayonet would need to be fitted to the particular musket it would be used with, and then these two items (along with any other items comprising that "stand of arms") were marked with the same stand number to assist in keeping them matched with one another ....

Liife is most assuredly an "ongoing learning experience"!
 
Last edited:
Thanks, green!

I'm a sucker for reference material, too ... :rolleyes: ... especially when it relates to a firearm or other item in my collection. I've just ordered a copy of Mr. Hull's treatise from Ray Riling Books (via alibris) as wel as some Providence/Peabody catalogue reprints from Cornell Publications ....
 
Having just received some reproduction Providence Tool Co. catalogues, ordered after I acquired this rifle, I thought I might post scans of a few of the engravings, which may serve to help illustrate the mechanism and operation, for those who may not be familiar with the Peabody ....

By the way, if you like to have such original reference material for your vintage (and even not so old) firearms, you owe it to yourself to visit - and bookmark - this website (www.cornellpubs.com/) for many such gems.

66cat01_sm.jpg


66cat02_sm.jpg


66cat03_sm.jpg


66cat04_detail.jpg


66cat06_sm.jpg
 
I too have a Canadian Peabody I purchased a few years back. Interesting thing about this one is that it has all the Canadian marks plus a big "41" stamped on the right side of the stock indicating it was issued to the Brockville Battalion of Rifles. Page 38 of Defending the Dominion verifies that Brockville received either the Peabody and Spencer or both. The 41 may be evidence that Brockville did receive the Peabody. Also it's interesting to note the weapons were not to be given unit marks when originally issued as they were not considered permanent arms. I also have the correct US bayonet that has no markings what so ever.
I have never considered firing this piece as the original ammo is quite expensive and conversion was never an option for me at the time. Maybe now I may look into so I could take this rare weapon to the range for a little shooting.
 
I got the parts (original - "new old stock" - breechblock and strikers) from Dixie Gun Works, some time ago ... but that is only one of several projects on the "to do" pile ... :rolleyes:

(Anybody know of a Canadian source for reasonably-priced round tuitts? ;) )
 
GrantR: did you ever go ahead and change the block over and convert your Peabody to centre fire?
Were there other Peabody models that were centre fire, thus just a simple change of parts?
Or some machining involved?
I've read you were going to but don't know if you did?


Although not mentioned in my original post, the 3000 Canadian-issue Peabody rifles were acquired in 1866 on a rather "emergency" basis (along with an even greater quantity of .56-.50 Spencer rifles and carbines) in the face of a threat of military invasion by the original "Irish Republican Army" of the US-based Fenian Brotherhood. :runaway:

At that time, the British Army and Canadian Militia were both armed with the muzzle-loading .577 caliber Enfield rifle, with the Snider breech system for conversion of those frontstuffers to breechloaders just in the process of being approved (though such conversions did not begin in Britain until October 1866, if I recall correctly.) It was felt that something more effective than muzzle-loaders was needed, but the situation was too urgent to wait for Snider-Enfields, which were going to be the "new" rifles for British and Empire troops, at least for the immediate future. (The first Snider-Enfields did not reach Canada until well into 1867, in fact ...)

It seems to make sense in such circumstances (at least to our present-day mindset, and in hindsight) that it would be considered advisable to have the barrel specifications of these "stopgap" breechloaders made to a size and configuration to accept the existing Pattern 1853 Enfield socket bayonets - which were to continue in use with the Snider conversions, in any event. However, I am familiar enough with various 19th century acquisitions of firearms and other military equipment to know that such "practical considerations" were not actually applied in practice all that often. :rolleyes:

According to David Edgecombe's "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955" the Peabody contract called for 3000 rifles equipped with bayonets. It seems highly unlikely that any existing Peabody design specifications would have included a barrel contour and front sight/bayonet lug combination identical to the British P'1853 Enfield rifle. In view of the "rush" nature of the contract for these rifles - which, for example, were somewhat reluctantly accepted in the existing .50-60 rimfire chambering which the Providence Tool Company was already set up to manufacture - I think it has long been assumed that an existing "on the shelf" design was rushed into production to fill this order. No details of the Peabody bayonets are given in David's book (or elsewhere that I can recall seeing), but one would normally think that the mere fact bayonets were also included in the order actually tends to suggest that existing British bayonets wouldn't fit these rifles ...

That is why it is quite surprising - at least to me - to discover that the outside dimensions and sight/lug configuration of these .50 caliber Peabody barrels actually duplicate those of the .577 caliber British Enfield rifle so closely that the standard British bayonet fits "to a tee" like this. :eek:

I do recall that David Edgecombe's research indicates that the end price negotiated for the Peabody rifles was actually significantly less than the amount at first quoted for each rifle and bayonet. I am now wondering whether arrangements might possibly have been made for changes in the Peabody barrel specifications so that bayonets could be eliminated from the order ... :confused: At any rate, I have sent off an e-mail to David for his reaction and comments ...
 
Yes .... I did go ahead with that conversion - using a 'new, old stock' original block and striker obtained from Dixie Gun Works, in order to keep my original parts unaltered. (Dixie apparently acquired all of the old Peabody parts from somewhere.) I had visions of doing the conversion myself, originally, but thought better of that and had a fellow I know do it for me. (He has a lot of experience with restoring old guns, and builds beautiful muzzle loaders from scratch, so is an absolute wizard at such stuff.)

peabody01.jpg


CM.jpg


The Providence Tool Co. did make many centerfire versions of the Peabody rifle - 25,000 for Romania (.45 Romanian - 11.43mm), about 50,000 in .43 Spanish (11.15mm) for Spain, Mexico and France, 2,000 in .45-70 for the Connecticut Militia and 2,941 in ".433" caliber (11.15 Spanish, I suspect) for the Massachusetts Militia. I gather that the receiver and block dimensions were standard for all the various Peabody contracts, and that blocks will thus interchange from one version to another. I also understand that Dixie Gun Works once had centerfire blocks and strikers for sale, but has long been sold out of those ...... :(

If you want to do such a conversion without changing your own original block and striker, Dixie sells the block for US$15.00 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=5501) and the striker (which they rather incorrectly call a firing pin") for US$10.00 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=5502).

At those prices, one would be foolish not to buy the extra parts and keep one's original rifle "intact" - as you undoubtedly know, removal/installation of breechblock and striker is quick and easy. You'll note Dixie refers to both items as being parts for the "Peabody carbine", but as I've indicated, because the receiver dimensions were kept constant, such parts were apparently interchangeable among all the various models. At any rate, I can confirm that they work just fine in a Canadian-contract Peabody!

Here are a couple of internet links from which you should be able to glean the steps needed for the conversion to centerfire -

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/1695/t/Peabody-Conversion-and-Range-Report.html

http://collectorguns35625.yuku.com/topic/795/t/Centerfire-Conversion-of-Swiss-Peabody.html

I shoot my Peabody with .50-70 cases trimmed back to .50-60 length, and load using .50-70 dies. (The larger cartridge in this photo is an original .577 Snider-Enfield round, included for size comparison.)
Peabody_firstloads_lowres.jpg


Here is a picture, sent to me by fellow-CGN member 'Beater', of an original .50-60 cartridge in his collection, with dimensions added ....
CanadianPeabodymeas_sm.jpg


For comparison, the current standard dimensions of a .50-70 case -
cd5070government.jpg


Despite the slight dimensional differences, my rounds chamber and fire flawlessly. Indeed, the wider .50-70 rim diameter seems to fit extremely well, so I suspect that the rim recess of the chambers in the 50-60 rimfire rifles was made somewhat larger in diameter than the cartridge rim to allow room for the rim to flatten out when struck by the striker .....
 
Have been communicating privately with Cantom (and Schneidersauto) to hopefully help them with their plans to make up centerfire conversion brechblocks for their Canadian Peabody rifles using the "new old stock" blocks and strikers available from Dixie Gun Works which I mentioned earlier in this thread .....

In checking back on this thread, I noted some of the original photo (and other) links were obsolete, so I have updated those in the earliest posts in this thread.

I should first off stress that I ended up deciding that this conversion was beyond my limited gunsmithing capabilities (both skill and tools) so I actually had a friend do my conversion block up for me. (He is an absolute whiz with obsolete firearms, and did a superb job .....)

In the hope that others might find the information of some value, I am going to convert my private messages to Cantom into posts here ...... (each one as a separate post.)
 
Here is Cantom's first message to me, and my reply -

cantom said:
Howdy. I'm ordering from Dixie gun works for the breech block and parts to make my Peabody centre fire.
The screw heads on the left have hacked heads.

Do you know which screws on this list I need to replace all 5 visible screws on the left side of the receiver and front of the buttstock?

What should be my total parts needs? Of course I want to be able to switch it back so original parts unaltered.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=peabody

Well, I'm no expert by any means, and the terminology used by Dixie doesn't necessarily jibe with what the parts might
have been called originally, but I'll hazard a guess, based on the numbers as labeled on this picture ....

leftsideofreceiver.jpg


First, however, here is a photograph of a disassembled Peabody rifle (from Ordnance Memorandum 15, U.S. Army Ordnance Trials
of the Peabody rifle, 1872-73) which has all the parts numbered and a corresponding numbered list. You ought to be able to
copy this to your computer and/or print it off for reference. In my attempted screw identification below, I give what I think are the
relevant numbers from this list as ["USOrd# 12"] and so on. -

USOrdnanceMemorandum15a.jpg


Assuming the five screws in the photo above are the ones you are wondering about, ! think they are as follows -

1. Lever screw [USOrd# 12] (Dixie part SP0432)

2. Block joint screw [USOrd# 15] (also Dixie part SP0432)

3. Brace Lever Roll screw [USOrd# 13] (Not listed by Dixie, but part SP0432 may work, or be adaptable.)

4. Butt stock strap screw - short [USOrd# 58] (Not listed by Dixie - this is a bolt with a very short shank which holds the Side Strap
to the rear of the receiver. If yours is still in good enough shape to remove it to take a look at it, you can do so without anything
falling apart.)

5. Butt stock strap screw - long [USOrd# 59] (Also apparently not listed by Dixie - This is a wood screw - similar to a buttplate
screw -also removable to look at without anything falling apart.)

If you are also by any chance wondering about the left side screw located further back on the wrist of the buttstock (not seen in
my picture above) that is the rear Lock Plate Screw, which passes through the wrist and and threads into the rear of the backaction
lock plate. [USOrd# 43].

As for what you would need from Dixie to make a centerfire conversion block .... assuming all your other parts are operational
and usable, you will need -
1. a breechblock (Dixie part MP0428) [USOrd# 18]
2. a firing pin or "striker" (Dixie part MP0431) [USOrd# 19]

Hope this helps!
 
My second substantive message to Cantom .....

Tom, thought you might like some images showing how my centerfire conversion block was done. Unfortunately, I neglected to take a picture showing the front of the breechblock and the relative size and configuration of the tip of the free-floating firing pin. It is fairly stout - I'd say at least 1/16" in diameter or more - and very rounded on the end to avoid punctured primers and the like.

The replacement breechblock from Dixie was literally "new", with nice color casehardening which emerged when the petrified packing grease was cleaned off - you can see it in the lower block image where the flash didn't wash it out.

By the way - just thought of this - I originally ordered a block and two strikers (i.e. firing pins) which I figured would be the most likely thing to get buggered up in the conversion process. Anyway, when I got the parts there was actually also a striker embedded by packing grease in the curved channel on the side of the block, where it rides back and forth. So, since the addition of the extension to the boss on the backside of the striker worked on the first go, I actually have two spare strikers left among my gun parts, in case it turns out you need another. (Can't say whether my good luck in having a striker included with the block is a regular thing .... at least I haven't seen any comments to that effect from others on the Swiss Rifle Board and such places where discussions have taken place about getting these parts and making a centerfire conversion block. )

Centerfireconversion.jpg


Note - of course, the shaped/rounded end of the original striker (which is the part which crushed the rim on rimfire cartridges) needs to be ground off flat so that it is flush with the front face of the block when the striker is fully forward in the channel. That may be obvious from the pictures, but thought I should comment on it anyway.
 
Another message from Tom, and my response -

cantom said:
Grant- great pics! Is there a piece silver soldered or welded on to the rimfire firing pin to project inside the bolt to hit the floating firing pin?

I'll keep the extra two firing pins you have in mind. The other gent I know who's also doing this also received a firing pin together with his bolt.


Yes, the added extension can be seen projecting from the original machined-in-place "boss" on the side of the firing pin in the image below. I believe that the fellow who did my conversion set the shank of the extension into a hole drilled into the center of that boss, and also either welded or silver soldered it in place ....

alteredfiringpin.jpg


As you likely know, the projecting boss is part of the original firing pin, and fits into a relatively shallow elongated recess in the bottom of the groove machined into the side of the block that the pin rides in. This permits only so much backward and forward movement of the pin while held in place in its channel by the receiver sidewall That recess is has been enlarged and deepened on my converted block beyond the center-line of the breechblock, as seen in the photo composite sent previously. The hole which houses the floating centerfire pin is then drilled from the front face of the breechblock to intersect that deepened recess, and the simple floating firing pin is set in as seen in the previous photos.

The altered original firing pin is positioned in its groove on the side of the breechblock in precisely the same way as in the rimfire mode, with the added extension on the boss projecting into the deepened recess behind the head of the floating centerfire pin. The original boss still operates to limit backward/forward movement of the whole striker unit, but the amount of clearance between the extension and the head of the floating firing pin, as well as the length of that pin, need to be worked out - there must be sufficiently positive contact with the pin to ensure that it drives forward far enough for positive primer ignition, yet sufficient clearance that the pin will fully retract behind the face of the breechblock when the block raised and lowered during operation of the action.

One method of conversion employs a small coil spring around the shaft of the firing pin inside the block recess to retract the pin. However, that method wasn't used for my block .... and in fact it seems needlessly complex. After all, the original rimfire firing pin was not spring-loaded in any way, but simply cammed back in its channel when its rounded front edge rode across the primed rim of the cartridge as the block was raised! The rounded end of the rather broad floating firing pin in my conversion operates in essentially the same manner.

Needless to say, whether in original rimfire configuration or converted to centerfire mode, it is not a good idea to leave the hammer down fully, resting on the upper end of the striker, while closing the action on a live cartridge, because the lock has a pretty strong mainspring which will operate to keep the firing pin projecting ahead of the face of the breechblock. In other words, you'll need to get in the habit of ensuring that the hammer is at half #### when loading.
 
Follow-up messages .....

cantom said:
Hi Grant. Frank and I met up at a gun show Sunday. We are both preparing to convert our Peabody's over to CF. We both deeply appreciate the info you have provided.
One thing we'd really like to know is the specifications of your new firing pin?

OAL and diameter?

Hi Tom -

Sorry for the delay. Turned out I didn't have the info (since I actually had someone rather less ham-handed do the actual conversion) so I did have to disassemble the rifle again. (Not a big deal, as you may know.)

Here is a scanner image of the firing pin, with dimensions added. (As you are likely aware, the closest edge of the head of the firing pin isn't actually flattened as it appears to be in the image - that is just an effect of scanning a rounded 3-dimensional object - for some reason it usually appears flattened where the curve makes contact with the glass ....

firingpin.jpg


Note that the shaft of the pin has a very slight taper. Not sure if that is necessary, but the fellow who did the work for me is quite a whiz with old firearms - knows what he is doing, in other words - so, if it was intentional, I suspect he gave it that taper to minimize any binding of the pin in the hole it protrudes through ....

Additional measurements taken from my converted block which you may find useful -
diameter of the firing pin hole at the block face - 0.110"
- diameter of the enlarged recess in the side of the block - 0.30"
- depth of that recess in the block (measured from the bottom of the groove which the striker slides in) - 0.356"
- distance from the front edge of the recess to the front face of the block - 0.285"

Note that the overall length of the firing pin is greater than the diameter of the recess in the block .... which means that even fully retracted, the pin still cannot come clear of the hole through the face of the block .... and I wondered how the heck he got it in there!

In fact, the hole is drilled right through the back of the recess to the recess machined into the bottom of the block, which houses the "brace lever" and "brace lever spring" (parts 20 and 22 on the US Ordnance Memorandum image and list in my previous message.) ..... To clarify (hopefully) here is a photo of the bottom of the block with the brace lever in position (the spring being below it within the block) -
Block01.jpg


Here is a photo showing the brace lever removed (It pivots on a screw which passes through the block) and the spring sitting beside it -
Block02.jpg


Now a photo from a lower angle showing the hole through from the recess in the side of the block. This hole is larger than the one which gos through the front face of the block - couldn't get a measurement, but large enough in diameter to permit the "head" of the firing pin to pass through to get it into the internal recess and then into the hole through the block face which it rides in -
Block04.jpg


Next, a photo of the block lying on its side, to show this larger "access hole" through the back of the internal recess -
Block03.jpg


Finally, the block face with the measurements to the center of the firing pin hole -
blockface.jpg


You will undoubtedly want to double-check these measurements relative to your own breechblocks, but they should give you a place to start, anyway ....

An added note - When the brace lever is installed in the block with the beefy brace lever spring below it, it is actually under quite a bit of spring pressure, so you will want to clamp it into place (in the padded jaws of a vise, or vise-grip pliers or some such) before removing the screw on which it pivots, and also when replacing the spring and lever in the block.
 
Back
Top Bottom