50 yard group and question

WolfyW

WolfyW

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Southern Canada
Hi all

As I've stated previously, I'm new to muzzleloading. And this is only my second trip to the range with a Lyman Deerstalker. I'm shooting round balls, 1:48 twist, off a bench to sight in and group. I used 40 and 50 grains of powder the first outing just to get on paper. Today I randomly decided to try 70 grains and 50 yards.
Here's a pic of today's results. That's 2 touching below the bull, 3 grouped together to the left. Am I being picky, or does it appear the gun is "trying" to group but something isn't 100% ? The forestock looks a tad rough inside, the grain kind of lifted. Maybe a bedding issue ? I haven't played with a variety of loads and patch thicknesses, admittedly. Any thoughts ?

 
The 1 in 48" twist was not really intended for patched round ball, though your results are astounding. It was compromise for a slower twist (round ball) and faster twist (slugs, maxi-ball).
Your group could be attributed to cleaning between shots, barrel tension in the stock, or even a loose rear/front sight. Try cleaning the barrel after every shot ans make sure the ball is seated firmly and consistently for every shot. IF the results are the same then take a business card cut into 1/2" strips (or thin tight weave cotton) and lay in the barrel channel on either side of the wedge pin then re-assemble and try again. I had a Thompson Center Patriot pistol that I laid a piece of thin cotton into the channel and re-assembled. It would put ten shots inside of 1 inch at 25 yards off a rest, prior to that it had a hard time keeping ten shots inside 3 inches.
 
Alonzo said:
The 1 in 48" twist was not really intended for patched round ball, though your results are astounding. It was compromise for a slower twist (round ball) and faster twist (slugs, maxi-ball).
Your group could be attributed to cleaning between shots, barrel tension in the stock, or even a loose rear/front sight. Try cleaning the barrel after every shot ans make sure the ball is seated firmly and consistently for every shot. IF the results are the same then take a business card cut into 1/2" strips (or thin tight weave cotton) and lay in the barrel channel on either side of the wedge pin then re-assemble and try again. I had a Thompson Center Patriot pistol that I laid a piece of thin cotton into the channel and re-assembled. It would put ten shots inside of 1 inch at 25 yards off a rest, prior to that it had a hard time keeping ten shots inside 3 inches.
Click to expand...


I'm going to try the business card bedding for the next outing. I did keep a moist patch and a dry patch on-hand to swab between shots. I know not to pound the ball dawn, but I do suspect I'm applying inconsistent pressure. I'll work on that as well. Other than that I can't complain so far. For the price, and considering I intended it for casual range practice and close shooting in the deer woods.
 
What I found made the biggest improvement in groups were the following:
1. Cleaning between shots. I settled on using a fairly tight patch, and a mixture of water soluble cutting oil, water, and isopropyl alcohol.
2. Finding the powder charge that the rifle liked...in my case, 45 grains for a .50 Great Plains rifle.
3. Finding the proper ball/patch/lube combination. In my case, a .495 pure lead ball, a fairly tight fitting patch, and the above mentioned moose milk, however, I presoak the patches, and let them dry overnight, so that the water and alcohol evaporate, leaving only the cutting oil on the patch.

You might google "Dutch Schoultz black powder accuracy system". He improved my accuracy dramatically.
YMMV
 
Easyrider said:
What I found made the biggest improvement in groups were the following:
1. Cleaning between shots. I settled on using a fairly tight patch, and a mixture of water soluble cutting oil, water, and isopropyl alcohol.
2. Finding the powder charge that the rifle liked...in my case, 45 grains for a .50 Great Plains rifle.
3. Finding the proper ball/patch/lube combination. In my case, a .495 pure lead ball, a fairly tight fitting patch, and the above mentioned moose milk, however, I presoak the patches, and let them dry overnight, so that the water and alcohol evaporate, leaving only the cutting oil on the patch.



Rider; I'm not being a smarta$$, but I have to ask, why the water and alcohol if left to evaporate? Why not just lube the patches with mares milk and save a step or two?
Click to expand...
 
The common mix for BP cleaning solution has been a standard for years. It seems everyone has a different take on it...as long as it works is the important thing.
Equal parts of Water Soluble oil, Lestoil, hydrogen peroxide, mixed with 16 to 20 parts water. This produces a white mixture which works awesome, aka Moose Milk.
If you want you can leave out the Hydrogen Peroxide.
For plinking and general fun shooting your groups are fantastic. We used to do a lot of target shooting at our rendezvous matches, plus we mixed in some fun matches as well.
Keep yur powder dry!!!
 
Plinker, the thinking is that the patch needs to be lubed, but not much. A fairly dry patch gets the job done without a bunch of excess liquid seeping into the powder next to it. The water/alcohol allows you to wet the patch down, and get it uniformly damp, or wet, whatever your pleasure, but still have a relatively lightly lubed patch, after the water evaporates, when the time comes to load it. The way I like mine lubed, is so that you can barely feel the oil on the patch, but you can feel it uniformly across the entire patch. Also, I prefer to use strips, as opposed to precut patches, and cut the patch off with a knife, after the ball is seated flush with the muzzle. This, combined with the light lubing, makes each patch as close to exactly the same as the last one, as possible. OBTW, the alcohol is in the mix to prevent algae growth in the oil/water solution. The cutting oil is veggy based, and algae grows quite well in it. If you're interested, as I mentioned above, Dutch Schoultz does a much better job of explaining than I.
 
In the book “Foxfire 5”, edited by Eliot Wigginton, page 230, gunsmith Charlie Blevins is quoted as saying a heavy charge of powder and a light ball require a barrel with more twist.
Charlie Blevins is pictured on page 235 with a rifling guide of one turn in 14”.
The Foxfire series of books is documentation of the lives and customs of the people of Southern Appalachia.
Foxfire 5 covers, iornmaking, blacksmithing, flintlock rifles, bear hunting, and other affairs of plain living and makes an interesting read.
 
If your gun will group that well then I suggest your ball/patch/lube and powder charges are okay, as is the twist rate in your barrel. The two separate groups indicate you are changing something in the way you shoot. Always rest the rifle barrel in the same spot where it touches your rest - preferably somewhere near the muzzle. Cheek pressure on the stock and the pressure of the butt against your shoulder can change the point of impact too. Your barrel wedges should fit such that they allow the barrel to expand and contract lengthwise as it heats and cools, without binding on the wedges or the stock. If you can find the harmonic "dead spot" for your barrel, in my experience that is where you should rest the barrel on the sandbag for most consistent grouping. Good luck.
 
Ol' Flinter said:
If your gun will group that well then I suggest your ball/patch/lube and powder charges are okay, as is the twist rate in your barrel. The two separate groups indicate you are changing something in the way you shoot. Always rest the rifle barrel in the same spot where it touches your rest - preferably somewhere near the muzzle. Cheek pressure on the stock and the pressure of the butt against your shoulder can change the point of impact too. Your barrel wedges should fit such that they allow the barrel to expand and contract lengthwise as it heats and cools, without binding on the wedges or the stock. If you can find the harmonic "dead spot" for your barrel, in my experience that is where you should rest the barrel on the sandbag for most consistent grouping. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Ya, it could very well be that it's just me. As Pete also suggested. What inspired the question is that I first sent the pic to a family member, who suggested my group may be shifting for some reason. But... I can't rule out the unavoidable fact that I'm just not 20 anymore :redface: Eyes change.
 
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