590a1

[Onagoth]

I disagree. Applying the four fundamentals as well as a mechanical safety only adds to ones safe handling practices. I'm with others, the safety does nothing to affect times competing. As ABCZAR posted, the safety is on until your sights are aligned and the conscious decision to fire has been made.

TDC

Well, I'll agree to disagree on this one.....

My issue is not with competition times, I just plain don't think there is any measurable benefit to a manual safety when common sense firearms handling is employed. (common sense handling extends beyond the 4 fundamentals IMO)

Also, not all guns have safeties, is that to say they are comparatively 'riskier' to operate? My opinion is 'no'.

You spoke about the risk or a slip and fall, but if you start playing the 'what if' game to justify using a manual safety to keep shooters and participants safe, where does it end? With the construction of 80m high berms? With a no-rapid fire shooting policy? Perhaps a no shooting at steel at any distance because the risk of ricochet is too high policy? It might be best to have a no movement involved competitive style shooting because a real world, fluid shooting environment is inherently to unsafe, even with the use of a manual safety. IMO, this is the kind of policies which are borne out of the 'what if analysis'

Maybe its safer to re-engage a manual safety after every shot because it

'adds to ones safe handling practice'

I think you see where I am going with this, no point in arguing about it, I'm not dismissing the viewpoint of others who prefer to use manual safeties, I just don't agree.

Like stupidity, you can't legislate against negligence either, even by requiring the use of a manual safety. If there is a reasonable amount of uncertainty regarding this risk of an AD or ND when someone is moving, perhaps the entire course should not even be shot. Otherwise, I think the added benefit of manual safeties is infinitesimally small

 

[TDC]

Slips and falls are a part of dynamic shooting there is no "what if" just "when". I agree there are times when shooting and moving where applying the safety is neither practical nor required. Another CGN member posted a scenario with a slung firearm as yet another instance where use of a manual safety is a wise idea. Are you saying you're willing to sling a loaded firearm without the use of a manual safety? With a slung firearm you are no longer aware of what crosses the muzzle. A violation of the second fundamental rule. Your comment "Maybe its safer to re-engage a manual safety after every shot because it.." is full of fail. If you follow the fundamental four that rule does not apply. If your sights are still on target and you're still of the conscious mind to shoot then there is no need to apply the safety, remove your trigger finger or direct the muzzle in a safe direction.

As for firearms without safeties. I haven't seen a new production firearm that does not have some sort of manual safety. Obviously if your firearm is without a safety then the fundamental four are all you've got.

I see no downside to using the safety, I can't say the same for not using it. There isn't any point in arguing this but keep in mind, every major agency, military or professional school teaches the use of the manual safety. You stick with running without if it suits your needs. The rest of us will opt for using it.

TDC

 

[Onagoth]

See below.

If your sights are still on target and you're still of the conscious mind to shoot then there is no need to apply the safety, remove your trigger finger or direct the muzzle in a safe direction.

Exactly the reason why firearms do not need to start with the safety engaged. The absence of a trigger finger in the trigger guard and safe muzzle direction eliminates the need for a manual safety entirely

As for firearms without safeties. I haven't seen a new production firearm that does not have some sort of manual safety. Obviously if your firearm is without a safety then the fundamental four are all you've got.

Glocks come to mind

I see no downside to using the safety, I can't say the same for not using it. There isn't any point in arguing this but keep in mind, every major agency, military or professional school teaches the use of the manual safety.

I will not trust the safety procedures of LEO, military or professional schools just because they are labelled as such....see recent articles regarding an LEO who fired 19 shots in London and hit nothing but a few houses and sheds.

You stick with running without if it suits your needs. The rest of us will opt for using it.

I know for a fact you don't speak for everyone


TDC

As far the idea of slings, I can't comment on that specifically because I have never used one in competition. My common sense tells me if your slinging a 'hot' firearm, then absolutely the safety should be engaged.

 

[ABCZAR]

"I see no downside to using the safety, I can't say the same for not using it. There isn't any point in arguing this but keep in mind, every major agency, military or professional school teaches the use of the manual safety. You stick with running without if it suits your needs. The rest of us will opt for using it."

TDC[/QUOTE]


Yes



In the military we employ the manual safety on our weapons period. In my experiance working/training with some other organizations I found they did the same. All of the Infantry/CSOR/JTF pers out there train this way I know for an absolute fact.

Years ago in the military it wasn't preached as hard as it is now but things have changed. We do it because it simply prevents incidents/injuries/deaths from happening.

We fire some of the most dynamic ranges you can do, more than any IPSC or IDPA course of fire. I am not saying we are all better shooters but rather we train under more demanding circumstances, with alot more movement, in a 360 degree enviornment. We train for real life engagements, not for score.

 

[Greenhorse six]

If you're quoting the CFSC book its SH*T!! I'm well aware of not RELYING on a manual safety. No where did I say I would, should, or did. Manual safeties serve as another measure of safety when you LOSE CONTROL of your FIREARM or do not have DIRECT CONTROL of your firearm.

Pistol grip stocks aid in recoil reduction for those unfamiliar with other methods, which are far more effective for both recoil reduction and shot placement. As for reloads, they should be done from cover to begin with. Regardless, if you can't hold the shotgun up with one hand you either have too much crap hanging off it, its too heavy in general, or you need to hit the gym.

TDC

It's from Mossbergs owners manual, It's a Catch-22,use them,but you can't trust them,so why use them? for the record I do use safetys,1911 .

I don't think a pistol grip stock reduces recoil, but it does help the shooter control it, your wrist and hand being at a more natural angle,also giving you more surface for recoil to push against, I wish I could word this better ,hope you get the Ideal, a wider area [shoulder stock +grip] for the same amount of force.

the safety is not as easy to access as on a mossberg with a stock stock [Hee,hee] but it's not any harder to do with practice.

I can't see changing your grip to do this much,[I guess that depends on hand size,another operator factor] and don't see it being as much of a issue on a long gun as it is on a hand gun.

 

[Engineer]

Does anyone make a pistol grip stock for a Mossberg 590A1?

Lets get this back on track. The knoxx stock will fit on your 590A1 but you'll need to dremal it out abit since the metal trigger guard is a little wider then the plastic on the 590 (or it did on mine).

 

[870P]

A very good friend of mine has an ithica 37...great gun...i like shooting it.

We had some 14in barrelled 870s around at one time but we have now standardized oursleves with the 18in at my unit. We were able to have more guns for training this way as I understand it. A tiny bit shorter than the 590 but it was noticeable...and lighter not that it was so much that made a huge difference either way.

I really like short stocks on a defensive/duty type gun, not only do they fit me {and a lot of other folks} better for that type of shooting but they make reloading a lot easier while shouldered, and losing an inch or two off of the OAL is a nice bonus.

 

[Greenhorse six]

Knoxx is a good choice, hear good things about the recoil reduction on them,, How do you like yours Engineer?

 

[TDC]

If I understand your previous posts this is where you stand. You don't trust safeties but you would safety a hot rifle/shotgun if you were to sling it. So which is it, do you use them or not? If you're using them selectively you're all sorts of f*cked up. Pick a method/system and stick with it.

Again, adhering to the fundamental four does NOT preclude using the manual safety. Unforeseen events lead to slips and falls. They also lead to foreign objects entering the trigger guard area. Again, I see no negatives to using a manual safety, you can't say the same for not using it.

As for the Glock comment. One could label the trigger safety as a manual/active safety device as you the operator disengage it.

I don't speak for everyone, you're right about that. I do speak for those who have far more training and experience than both you and I. Do tell, what group/organization/unit/military/school teaches and preaches to not use the manual safety???

Greenhorse,

I never said you should rely on a manual safety. A manual safety is insurance for instances where you lose control or direct control of the firearm such as slips and falls.

With regards to pistol grip stocks. Recoil control is controlled by the support hand more than the firing hand and shoulder. The isometric push-pull will nearly eliminate the felt recoil. The pistol grip stock doesn't play a large role in mitigating recoil. It is more comfortable than a traditional stock but it presents problems of its own. Shooting from prone is hampered by the extra length of the pistol grip. With the Mossberg you can't access the tang safety or the action release with a PG stock. Slinging a shotgun with a traditional 2 point sling with a PG stock is difficult. three point slings on a pump gun are a disaster and do not afford an easy transition.

TDC