6.35 Velodog cartridge

[fiscus]

They should either issue a letter OR charge someone criminally for possession of an unregistered/prohibited handgun when they have such grounds (logically speaking). In legal terms, there is no gray zone... it's either they have proof that it's not an antique or they don't.

I don't know about that!

A lot of these can't be proven to be one or the other. They might be by someone who has knowledge or methods that are not well known or commonly available. It IS a gray zone! It would be wrong to lump it to one side or the other.

 

[762mm]

That is not particularly true; most likely the gun would be seized as a prohib but you would not be charged because it could not be proved to be antique. The RCMP administers the law so they do not have to completely obey the law --- they can have policies and act on the basis of the policies

cheers mooncoon

Well, I'm gonna tell you the same thing I told my gun club owner when he threatened me that cops would seize my antiques (during club inspection) if I bring them to the range, supposedly due to the fact that they're not registered and DESPITE the RCMP letter: If they're gonna seize ANYTHING of mine, they better damn well charge me criminally with something or they won't lay their gun grabbing hands on my guns. The charter gives me the right against unreasonable search and seizure.

This is how our legal system functions and I know it because I am also in that field of work: they cannot seize something just because they feel like it (although they will often times try to intimidate people into thinking just that). It has to be a prohibited device or substance, in which case they have to charge the person possessing it with something in relation to that prohibited item (it goes hand in hand with the seizure of property).

Don't forget that the onus of proof is still on the prosecution, so they better have damn good grounds to make such a move and charge you criminally - in other words, they have to prove you guilty and you don't have to be the one to prove your innocence. Same goes for the seizure of property, as only illegal items can be seized (or items used in for illicit means).

P.S. Thanks everyone for your input, much appreciated!

 

[dingus]

I think the Problem is that even tho the prosecution has to prove stuff the cops dont gota do Squat they can charge you till the cows come home take your stuff and later the Prosecution will throw it out when they see the cops scewed up!
Meentime you go thru hell for months and months even years and have to get a lawyer ect.
The police will just take your stuff and let the prosecution sort it out later.
I think Mooncoon has this one Right.

In a perfect world you are correct 762 mm but the way things really happen is a diffrent thing...

 

[762mm]

I think the Problem is that even tho the prosecution has to prove stuff the cops dont gota do Squat they can charge you till the cows come home take your stuff and later the Prosecution will throw it out when they see the cops scewed up!
Meentime you go thru hell for months and months even years and have to get a lawyer ect.
The police will just take your stuff and let the prosecution sort it out later.
I think Mooncoon has this one Right.

In a perfect world you are correct 762 mm but the way things really happen is a diffrent thing...

Well, maybe things are different out west, but here the police are VERY careful with the charges they lay, to the point where sometimes they cut people loose on obvious criminal infractions because they damn well know that it won't get anywhere in court due to certain legal elements... and that their department & themselves will just end up with a tarnished reputation in front of the prosecutors & judges (who just hate to even process paperwork on weak cases, let alone going to trial on it). This is why BS charges are usually dismissed on the spot by the sergeant-detective on duty in case the uniforms fck up (the SD being much more law-savvy than the regular Joe or Jane Patrolman).

But, if the charges are laid without sufficient grounds nevertheless, there is always other recourse against the officers in question. The ethics commission is one recourse, while a lawsuit (against the department) for the violation of your charter rights is another.

Anyway, I definitely wouldn't let a violation of my basic rights just slide, plus I don't get intimidated by a uniform (as I wore it and dealt with it on many occasions). Like I said, I've been around the court system for quite a few years (on the prosecution's side, of course). It's not a matter of a "perfect world", but rather a matter of being able to apply legal principles to your own advantage... and fighting back when someone tries to stomp all over your rights.

To tell you the truth, most cops get away with it because people simply don't know their rights to begin with.. and are trained to be afraid to stand up for themselves. In real terms, this factor by itself probably accounts for 90+ % of all seizures and confessions obtained by police/other law enforcement. I'm not bashing any LEO's here, just stating what I know from my life experience... been there, done that.

But anyway... let's get back to antiques!

 

[TBMH]

I think the Problem is that even tho the prosecution has to prove stuff the cops dont gota do Squat they can charge you till the cows come home take your stuff and later the Prosecution will throw it out when they see the cops scewed up!
Meentime you go thru hell for months and months even years and have to get a lawyer ect.
The police will just take your stuff and let the prosecution sort it out later.
I think Mooncoon has this one Right.

In a perfect world you are correct 762 mm but the way things really happen is a diffrent thing...

Well said Dingus. This reminds me of the thread where somebody was selling a front stuffer of some sort and one of the guys wanted to call the fuzz becase it was suspected that it was not an antque. I can only imagen what would happen if somebody called the police about one of my .32rf revolvers. I think the cops would charge first and ask latter.

762, while I might not always agree with you.It seems that you are a good cop. I think you need to relize not all cops are like you. Many don't know the laws (heck many gun nuts don't ).

 

[mooncoon]

Anyway, I definitely wouldn't let a violation of my basic rights just slide, plus I don't get intimidated by a uniform (as I wore it and dealt with it on many occasions).

You are obviously far more wealthy than I. I can think of two people who had guns seized locally for dubious reasons and ultimately had them returned. They were both out of pocket many thousands of dollars.

It does not even have to get to the charges laid stage; simply "lawyering up" means tht you are out of pocket in a non recoverable manner. Further I believe around the time of the passing of C68 the police seized a large number of FN rifles (legally owned by many owners). These guns were then destroyed without a court order. A subsequent class action suit found the destruction and confiscation to be wrong but the owners were not compensated and the police not penalized.

Think of the Robert Djukanski case; the RCMP did their best to cover it up and it was only the release of the videos and the public uproar that has resulted in anything being done. Still questionable if the 4 officers will be penalized for killing him with their tasers. The issue being not that the situation needed control but the reckless way in which it was done.

cheers mooncoon

 

[762mm]

762, while I might not always agree with you.It seems that you are a good cop. I think you need to relize not all cops are like you. Many don't know the laws (heck many gun nuts don't ).

Well, my LEO days are nearing the end now, as I am seeking other career opportunities that offer even higher challenges (and better pay, lol). But I will always stay faithful to my principles (always have in the past), so thank you for the compliment.

Like the saying goes: "All that's needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

You are obviously far more wealthy than I. I can think of two people who had guns seized locally for dubious reasons and ultimately had them returned. They were both out of pocket many thousands of dollars.

It does not even have to get to the charges laid stage; simply "lawyering up" means tht you are out of pocket in a non recoverable manner. Further I believe around the time of the passing of C68 the police seized a large number of FN rifles (legally owned by many owners). These guns were then destroyed without a court order. A subsequent class action suit found the destruction and confiscation to be wrong but the owners were not compensated and the police not penalized.

Think of the Robert Djukanski case; the RCMP did their best to cover it up and it was only the release of the videos and the public uproar that has resulted in anything being done. Still questionable if the 4 officers will be penalized for killing him with their tasers. The issue being not that the situation needed control but the reckless way in which it was done.

cheers mooncoon

Yeah, I wish I was wealthy... then maybe I could afford more antiques, haha!

As far as civil lawsuits are concerned, you don't really need a lawyer present and can choose to represent yourself (provided you know civil law well enough, of course). But I do admit that the police unions tend to be very influential and have seemingly bottomless pockets when it comes to fighting for their guys... and so do any public administrations (after all, they're fed with OUR taxes and can always tax more when needed). There are some things, however, that are undeniable and undefendable in a courtroom, no matter how much dough and how many lawyers you have. But anyway... this isn't the legalese section, lol!

Let's just agree that sheep mentality and allowing the CFC to give it to us all up the a** whenever they please is not a winning way out for us. We, as gun owners, have to question, contradict and fight back every BS decision to restrict our rights & freedoms.

Remember: the easiest way to lose a right is not to exercise it!