6.5-06 ai vs 6.5 Gibbs
- Thread starter redrider
- Start date
What is your velocity goal? No actual experience with either. I am about to chamber a pair of rifles in 6.5x55AI, similar in size to the 6.5-06. From the reading I have been doing it should fling 140's approaching 3000fps.
If you're an all out speed junkie, and don't mind fire forming the brass and such, I say go for it. Will any animal inside 500M notice a difference? I doubt it.
If you're an all out speed junkie, and don't mind fire forming the brass and such, I say go for it. Will any animal inside 500M notice a difference? I doubt it.
The 6.5, 264 caliber is my personal favourite. I have two .264 WM and am currently in a project to switch one to a 6.5 Remington Magnum. The case capacity of the .264 of 82 grains is just too much. Not efficient, and hard on the barrel, and my shoulder. I think the 68 grain capacity of the Remington Magnum is much more reasonable. Based on my research I can get pretty much the same velocities out of a 6.5 RM as I can out of the .264.
No I cannot recommend you consider a 6.5 RM as the brass is too hard to find. What I would recommend is the 6.5x284 as it is now an up and coming cartridge rather than an obscure wildcat or standard cartridge spiraling into obscurity. It has nearly the same case capacity as the 6.5 RM. Savage even chambers their Long Range Hunter in the cartridge. You can get Lapua brass for it. Dies are available. The only little bit of an issue to watch is the action length. Those low drag 140 grain bullets that you want to shoot are very long. If you do not want to give up case capacity by shoving the bullet way back into the case, you also want to seat them long in the neck. So, what I am saying is that while the .284 is a short action cartridge, you really want the 6.5x284 in a long action. I am assuming because the overall length and weight of the 7mm RM and the 6.5x284 Savage is the same, the 6.5x284 Savage is built on a long action. Worth checking though if you are considering it. And if you build, make sure you use a long action. And consider that if you base your build on the 30-06 the case eats up your action length, and still leaves you short for bullet...
Just my thoughts.
Ron AKA !
Your BEST post ever !
lol RJ
Your BEST post ever !
lol RJYou make so really good points, i have a 25-06 action that i would use for the build, and it would make sense to make 6.5-284 to seat the bullets out so it does not eat up case capacity.
I guess my real question is it possible to push a 140gr pill at 3000 plus out of a non magnum case accuracy??
I do have a 264WM that i put together as a bench, hunting blind rig. It will run 140 3050 at 3/8moa, but as soon as I step on it the groups open up..
I have had it 3270 before the primers we not happy, but it wont shoot there ,,
I think the short answer is that it depends on your barrel length. If you are willing to use a 28" or 30" quality barrel, I think you can reach or exceed 3000 fps with accuracy. Have a look at the load map near the bottom of this article on the 6.5x284. These long range accuracy loads are all around 2950 or so with 140 or 142 grain bullets.
Another option is to consider the 130 or 135 grain to get a little more velocity. If you look at the Berger Quick Reference Data you can see that lowest Form Factor which indicates long distance performance is their new 135 grain Classic Hunter at 0.913. The 130 grain at .925 is also slightly ahead of the 140 at 0.935. All good bullets, but the 135 at least in theory provides the best long distance performance. That is why I like the 6.5 caliber. I think it provides the best combination of long distance performance with lower recoil.
ruger-ruger
CGN Regular
I would build a 6.5MM Sherman. Google it and have a look at it. Reamer is easy to rent and they are basically a 6.5 Gibb with a little differnet shoulder.
Widden makes dies for it, which are pretty good.
Mine is built on a Stiller action, Brux barrel. Brass takes a little to make, neck a 270 case up to .284, then neck it down to 6.5mm and leave a doughnut on the neck. Load with 12 grains or so of bullseye, fill with cream of wheat, little paper towel plug and then fire form them.
After that you can load them up.
I have shot 160 Matix out of it at 3135FPS using N-570 powder. Now I am using the 140 Berger Hybrid with R-26 at 3315 FPS.
It will basically shoot one hole groups at 100 yards and the drops and speeds have been verified out to 900 yards.
It's a pretty neat cartridge. Way more efficient that the 264 win mag ( which I also have).
Widden makes dies for it, which are pretty good.
Mine is built on a Stiller action, Brux barrel. Brass takes a little to make, neck a 270 case up to .284, then neck it down to 6.5mm and leave a doughnut on the neck. Load with 12 grains or so of bullseye, fill with cream of wheat, little paper towel plug and then fire form them.
After that you can load them up.
I have shot 160 Matix out of it at 3135FPS using N-570 powder. Now I am using the 140 Berger Hybrid with R-26 at 3315 FPS.
It will basically shoot one hole groups at 100 yards and the drops and speeds have been verified out to 900 yards.
It's a pretty neat cartridge. Way more efficient that the 264 win mag ( which I also have).
I went with the 6.5-06 for several reasons. Not a thing wrong with the 6.5x284 either other than that darn under size rim.
My reasons for choosing the 6.5-06 was that Eaglelord had one for sale around 15 years ago and it was evident that he knew his stuff so I bought it from him. I still have that rifle and it is still very accurate. It does have a slight velocity advantage over the 6.5x55 which when loaded to its full potential will give 2900fps out of a 22in bbl with the same powder and bullet in the load I am going to give you.
Rifle Mod 70 Winchester
bullet 140grn SST IL.
bbl 24in with 1-10 twist rate.
primer CCI 250 Magnum
powder IMR 7828 SC
Velocity 3000+ fps.
This rifle needs the velocity to live up to its accuracy potential. The 1-10 twist rate isn't quite fast enough for good bullet stability under 2900fps. At the above loading it is a consistent sub moa shooter if I do may part. It will not stabilize 160grn bullets and lighter bullets such as the 129 grain offerings don't do well either, other than the ttsz monolitics which are long for weight. The only reason the lighter bullets don't do well is because of a generous throat and a long jump to the leade.
I have taken several animals with this rifle. All clean kills other than a Black Bear I shot while it was running away. It was very close but I misjudged the angle and only hit it with a glancing shot to the shoulder, which broke it and slowed it down for a quick follow up kill shot.
It was obvious from looking at the feed rails on the Mod 70 that it had been re barreled from a 270Win or 30-06. So feeding is smooth and positive as is extraction. The bolt face was just a standard bolt face.
I later built another on a Remington action. The rifle had a tight throat and short leade for lighter bullets. It to shot very well but I still liked my Win Mod 70. I sold that barrel and reamer to Gunrunner08. He might be willing to put a rifle together for you and he might even still have that barrel. It has a 1-8 twist and is of course threaded for a Rem 700.
My reasons for choosing the 6.5-06 was that Eaglelord had one for sale around 15 years ago and it was evident that he knew his stuff so I bought it from him. I still have that rifle and it is still very accurate. It does have a slight velocity advantage over the 6.5x55 which when loaded to its full potential will give 2900fps out of a 22in bbl with the same powder and bullet in the load I am going to give you.
Rifle Mod 70 Winchester
bullet 140grn SST IL.
bbl 24in with 1-10 twist rate.
primer CCI 250 Magnum
powder IMR 7828 SC
Velocity 3000+ fps.
This rifle needs the velocity to live up to its accuracy potential. The 1-10 twist rate isn't quite fast enough for good bullet stability under 2900fps. At the above loading it is a consistent sub moa shooter if I do may part. It will not stabilize 160grn bullets and lighter bullets such as the 129 grain offerings don't do well either, other than the ttsz monolitics which are long for weight. The only reason the lighter bullets don't do well is because of a generous throat and a long jump to the leade.
I have taken several animals with this rifle. All clean kills other than a Black Bear I shot while it was running away. It was very close but I misjudged the angle and only hit it with a glancing shot to the shoulder, which broke it and slowed it down for a quick follow up kill shot.
It was obvious from looking at the feed rails on the Mod 70 that it had been re barreled from a 270Win or 30-06. So feeding is smooth and positive as is extraction. The bolt face was just a standard bolt face.
I later built another on a Remington action. The rifle had a tight throat and short leade for lighter bullets. It to shot very well but I still liked my Win Mod 70. I sold that barrel and reamer to Gunrunner08. He might be willing to put a rifle together for you and he might even still have that barrel. It has a 1-8 twist and is of course threaded for a Rem 700.
Berger just announced a new 6.5 hunting bullet in the Elite Hunter series. This adds to the relatively new 6.5 135 grain Classic Hunter. All long bullets that depart from SAAMI standards for lengths to fit in a magazine. They are obviously intended for those willing to load single shot, or have a short action cartridge in a long action gun.
As for twist, make sure you don't go any slower than 8 twist, and probably 7.5 is ideal for this crop of new long low drag bullets that Berger and others are making.
As for twist, make sure you don't go any slower than 8 twist, and probably 7.5 is ideal for this crop of new long low drag bullets that Berger and others are making.
I've had the 6.5-06 Ackley, if I was to get a long action 6.5mm built it would probably be a 6.5-284. It matches the 6.5-06 for velocity, and you can just buy wonderful Lapua brass ready to shoot
Code:
Cartridge : 6.5-06
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 60.549 grain H2O = 3.931 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
21 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL26 96.8 58.1 3.76 3050 100.0 62000 13104 1.195 ! Near Maximum !
AA MagPro 100.0 59.3 3.84 3028 98.0 62000 13861 1.190 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828ssc 98.5 56.5 3.66 3027 99.3 62000 13306 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL22 99.9 56.4 3.65 3009 99.8 62000 13152 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 99.9 60.7 3.93 2993 100.0 62000 12572 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 103.0 55.9 3.62 2992 99.1 59680 13208 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL19 96.9 54.1 3.51 2968 99.7 62000 12546 1.184 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL17 87.7 51.3 3.33 2966 100.0 62000 11698 1.190 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL23 102.2 55.8 3.62 2966 100.0 62000 11805 1.198 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL25 103.0 57.2 3.71 2960 100.0 56612 12635 1.228 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 87.4 51.6 3.34 2957 100.0 62000 12109 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 87.4 51.6 3.34 2957 100.0 62000 12109 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 92.5 53.3 3.46 2956 100.0 62000 12041 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831sc 98.3 55.4 3.59 2949 98.7 62000 12462 1.181 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 102.2 55.4 3.59 2949 98.7 62000 12462 1.181 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 96.6 51.6 3.35 2913 100.0 62000 11277 1.208 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 94.7 51.7 3.35 2908 99.9 62000 11541 1.187 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 92.9 51.6 3.34 2907 100.0 62000 11513 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Code:
Cartridge : 6.5-284
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 59.663 grain H2O = 3.874 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.100 inch = 78.74 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
21 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL26 97.2 57.4 3.72 3049 100.0 62000 12860 1.202 ! Near Maximum !
AA MagPro 100.3 58.6 3.80 3026 98.1 62000 13606 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828ssc 98.8 55.8 3.62 3025 99.3 62000 13055 1.179 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL22 100.2 55.7 3.61 3008 99.8 62000 12907 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 100.2 60.0 3.89 2991 100.0 62000 12334 1.190 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 103.0 55.0 3.57 2980 99.0 59051 12932 1.205 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL19 97.2 53.5 3.46 2966 99.8 62000 12311 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL23 102.5 55.2 3.57 2964 100.0 62000 11584 1.206 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL17 88.0 50.7 3.29 2964 100.0 62000 11477 1.197 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 87.7 51.0 3.30 2954 100.0 62000 11878 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 87.7 51.0 3.30 2954 100.0 62000 11878 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 92.8 52.7 3.42 2954 100.0 62000 11814 1.199 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL25 103.0 56.3 3.65 2949 100.0 55978 12382 1.241 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831sc 98.5 54.8 3.55 2946 98.8 62000 12228 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 102.5 54.8 3.55 2946 98.8 62000 12228 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 96.9 51.0 3.31 2910 100.0 62000 11062 1.215 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 94.9 51.1 3.31 2905 100.0 62000 11321 1.195 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 93.2 51.0 3.30 2904 100.0 62000 11293 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
Code:
Cartridge : 6.5-06 Ackley
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 65.252 grain H2O = 4.237 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
24 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL26 94.0 60.8 3.94 3069 100.0 62000 13631 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
AA MagPro 97.3 62.2 4.03 3058 98.5 62000 14518 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL25 102.8 61.5 3.98 3058 100.0 62000 13299 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828ssc 95.9 59.3 3.84 3057 99.6 62000 13915 1.182 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 101.4 59.3 3.84 3057 99.6 62000 13915 1.182 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL22 97.3 59.1 3.83 3037 99.9 62000 13716 1.198 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 97.2 63.7 4.13 3019 100.0 62000 13104 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL19 94.5 56.8 3.68 2999 99.9 62000 13106 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL17 85.3 53.8 3.49 2989 100.0 62000 12198 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RL23 99.4 58.5 3.79 2987 100.0 62000 12301 1.210 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 85.1 54.2 3.51 2986 100.0 62000 12630 1.199 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 85.1 54.2 3.51 2986 100.0 62000 12630 1.199 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 90.1 56.0 3.63 2984 100.0 62000 12555 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831sc 95.9 58.3 3.78 2983 99.1 62000 13068 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 99.7 58.3 3.78 2983 99.1 62000 13068 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 103.0 61.3 3.97 2946 99.2 55598 13368 1.237 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 92.4 54.4 3.52 2940 100.0 62000 12060 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 94.1 54.2 3.51 2939 100.0 62000 11772 1.215 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 90.7 54.2 3.52 2939 100.0 62000 12030 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007ssc 85.3 52.0 3.37 2923 100.0 62000 11901 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 92.0 53.6 3.47 2911 100.0 62000 11126 1.208 ! Near Maximum !Well that's a bit of info to think about.
So if I use my ruger m77 for the 6.5 284 build my worry is getting that rebated case to feed. I guess just grinding the feed rails on the side to get the case to sit a little higher wouldn't be a problem. And as the OAL case length in that action is 3.420 should be lots of room for long pointy bullets.
On the other hand if I build a 6.5-06 ai or some variation of that case, how much it too much bullet in the case is to much?
With the AI case do you have to fire form it or just load up some full power loads and head to the range. I know with the Gibbs and the Sherman you would need to.
Really all I'm after is a hunting rig with a 24" barrel that will launch 140ish pills at 3000fps, that will shoot under 1 moa..
Thanks Dean.
So if I use my ruger m77 for the 6.5 284 build my worry is getting that rebated case to feed. I guess just grinding the feed rails on the side to get the case to sit a little higher wouldn't be a problem. And as the OAL case length in that action is 3.420 should be lots of room for long pointy bullets.
On the other hand if I build a 6.5-06 ai or some variation of that case, how much it too much bullet in the case is to much?
With the AI case do you have to fire form it or just load up some full power loads and head to the range. I know with the Gibbs and the Sherman you would need to.
Really all I'm after is a hunting rig with a 24" barrel that will launch 140ish pills at 3000fps, that will shoot under 1 moa..
Thanks Dean.
I understand the desire to build a custom gun with actions you own. I am doing a 6.5 Remington Magnum on a 700 long action. However, if one is practical about it, probably the lowest expense way to get into a 6.5x284 Norma is to buy one off the shelf. Savage makes a good one, with a 8 twist 26" barrel. Will handle all the new ultra long, ultra low drag bullets.
Savage Long Range Hunter. I don't have this model of Savage but my off the shelf LRPV easily shoots 1/2" MOA. And the Savage barrel jam nut system makes future barrel changes easy.
Savage Long Range Hunter. I don't have this model of Savage but my off the shelf LRPV easily shoots 1/2" MOA. And the Savage barrel jam nut system makes future barrel changes easy.
