6.5 Creedmoor-Shooting compressed loads.

[todbartell]

Fired my RL26 147gr ELD test loads off yesterday

2.8" OAL, .156" jump to lands
Lapua brass (virgin)
CCI 450 small rifle magnum primer

Rifle is a Tikka T3x CTR 20.08" barrel

100y groups, -2C Temp

Top, 44.6grs 2513 fps, .84moa

Middle, 45.0grs 2524 fps, .29moa

Bottom, 45.4grs 2536 fps, .56moa

45.4grs is 103% load density. Plenty compressed for my liking. I can seat out in my rifle to 2.926" OAL and be .030" off lands, still fit in the magazine. I should be able to increase charge weights to the 47gr ballpark at the same compression, and likely will get me into the 2650-2700 fps range from the 20" barrel. From a 24" barrel, this would be approx 2775 fps. Even at my 2525 fps .29moa load, with the slippery 147ELD that will stay above 1350 fps to 1050 yards

 

[Atlas]

Thanks a lot Todd.
I'm going to wait until my front and rear rests come in in a few weeks and do some more testing.
That middle load you've got was some good shooting.

On a side note, how do you like the Lab Radar compared to a Chrony or something similar??

 

[todbartell]

the radar is fantastic, I've owned it for almost 4 years now and it's worth every dime

 

[leveractionjunkie]

Man I wish the labradar would read sub 22 bullets andbullets going 4000fps+. I like to chrony as many rounds as possible and that unit would be the ticket for sure.

 

[todbartell]

Here's my 147ELD / RL26 data from my 20.1" Tikka CTR

[TABLE="width: 704"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]T3X CTR 6.5 Creed  / 20.08” barrel
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 7"]147gr Hornady ELD-M  @ 2.926” OAL  (.030” jump)
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Lands @ 2.314 ”
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]CBTO = 2.284”
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]9956psi start pressure
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]WF .5
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4"]Lapua brass 52.3grs h20
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]CCI450 primer
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]G1 BC =   .650 (100y)
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]----
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]1.099MS node
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][B]RL26[/B]
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 8"]44.2  - 2450 fps SD7 -2c (ba0.3094, 1.221ms) .5moa 3 shot[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 8"]44.6 – 2487 fps SD6 -2c (ba0.3115, 1.202ms) 1.1moa 3 shot[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 8"]45.0 – 2517 fps SD6 -2c (ba0.3126, 1.186ms) .88moa 3 shot[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 7"]46.2 - 2630 fps SD5 -4c (ba0.3197, 1.129ms) 55k psi[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 7"]46.6 - 2659 fps SD10 -4c (ba0.3205, 1.114ms) 57k psi[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 8"]47.0 - 2692 fps SD15 -4c (ba0.3222, 1.097ms) 59k psi  OBT [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]47.4 - 2714 fps SD26 -4c (ba0.3218, 1.086ms) 61k psi .52moa 3 shot 103y
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]47.8 - 2748 fps SD9 -4c (ba0.3260, 1.070ms)  --- 63k psi
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Seems suitable to me. I know there's a consistent sub half moa load in here, likely play around the 46.9grs ballpark and stretch the distance out and retest. Here's a half moa group from today with 47.4grs off a makeshift shooting rest

 

[lclund1946]

Here's my 147ELD / RL26 data from my 20.1" Tikka CTR

That is really quite impressive from a 20 " barrel. The 147 ELDX seated at 2.925" or 0.030" from the lands is pretty much exactly what I consider a perfectly designed cartridge as the following drawing shows. I found the results of a ladder that someone did with the 147 ELDM seated 0.020" off the lands in Virgin Lapua brass, with RL 26 in a 26" barrel at 22 Celsius. I have included it in the drawing and would appreciate it if you could show us how close Quickload is to this data.

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[todbartell]

I found the results of a ladder that someone did with the 147 ELDM seated 0.020" off the lands in Virgin Lapua brass, with RL 26 in a 26" barrel at 22 Celsius. I have included it in the drawing and would appreciate it if you could show us how close Quickload is to this data

Cartridge          : 6.5 Creedmoor
Bullet             : .264, 147, Hornady ELD-M 26333
Useable Case Capaci: 46.352 grain H2O = 3.010 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.926 inch = 74.32 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Alliant RL26 ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   94    43.20   2632    2260   46554   9303     98.9    1.370
-09.0   95    43.68   2661    2309   47957   9381     99.1    1.354
-08.0   96    44.16   2689    2359   49419   9453     99.3    1.338
-07.0   97    44.64   2718    2409   50937   9521     99.5    1.323
-06.0   98    45.12   2746    2460   52521   9584     99.7    1.307
-05.0   99    45.60   2775    2511   54170   9642     99.8    1.292
-04.0  100    46.08   2803    2563   55889   9694     99.9    1.277  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  101    46.56   2832    2616   57681   9740    100.0    1.289  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  102    47.04   2860    2669   59550   9781    100.0    1.272  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  103    47.52   2889    2722   61501   9816    100.0    1.256  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  104    48.00   2917    2776   63539   9849    100.0    1.239  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  106    48.48   2946    2830   65667   9881    100.0    1.222  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[todbartell]

Shot the 147 ELD / RL26 load today out to 301 yards. 4/5 shots in .56moa (46.9grs)

 

[lclund1946]

Cartridge          : 6.5 Creedmoor
Bullet             : .264, 147, Hornady ELD-M 26333
Useable Case Capaci: 46.352 grain H2O = 3.010 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.926 inch = 74.32 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Alliant RL26 ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   94    43.20   2632    2260   46554   9303     98.9    1.370
-09.0   95    43.68   2661    2309   47957   9381     99.1    1.354
-08.0   96    44.16   2689    2359   49419   9453     99.3    1.338
-07.0   97    44.64   2718    2409   50937   9521     99.5    1.323
-06.0   98    45.12   2746    2460   52521   9584     99.7    1.307
-05.0   99    45.60   2775    2511   54170   9642     99.8    1.292
-04.0  100    46.08   2803    2563   55889   9694     99.9    1.277  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  101    46.56   2832    2616   57681   9740    100.0    1.289  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  102    47.04   2860    2669   59550   9781    100.0    1.272  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  103    47.52   2889    2722   61501   9816    100.0    1.256  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  104    48.00   2917    2776   63539   9849    100.0    1.239  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  106    48.48   2946    2830   65667   9881    100.0    1.222  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Thanks. It really quite remarkable how close QL came to the real world results especially at 48.0 grains where it was exactly the same at 2917 fps and one would expect slight primer cratering at 63,539 PSI. What is even more remarkable is the fact that this "IMPROVED" version of Hornady's 6.5 CM (COL-0.126" over Saami with a 26" barrel) can exceed the Parent Cartridge by 200-250 fps and still be running moderate pressure at about 60,000PSI. The 6.5 CM was designed to run the 120 & 140 A-Max bullets at Max COAL 2.8" and 63,000 PSI and Saami speced to that end, although they suggest running at moderate pressures under 60,000 PSI which runs the 140 A-Max to 2820 in a 28" barrel : see article https://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-6/200961145351-hornadycreedmoor.pdf

Unfortunately when they came out with the 143 and 147 bullets the 2.8" Saami COAL has these bullets running well down in the case and about 0.150" from the lands. As a result Factory Rounds and Load Data do not reflect the potential of the 6.5 CM Case which really does not do much, if any better than the 6.5 Lapua. Fortunately the excess Free Bore allows handloaders to make the 6.5 CM into a pretty awesome Cartridge by simply eating the bullet out near the lands in a Saami speced chamber and rifle with a magazine that allows a 2.926" COAL as todbartell has shown us and backed up by a real world ladder test with RL 26 . The QL data he provided shows 46.56 grains as a 101% fill getting 100 % burn and the Ladder test showed that 46.5 -47.1 grains should produce a good group with low SD in a 26" barrel.

While the 6.5 CM is throated OK for the 147 ELD-M bullet the 145 ELD-X seats with Bearing Surface about 0.024- 0.030" down into the case when seated to the lands at about 2.895- 2.901" COAL. As the throat cannot be changed on a Saami 6.5 CM. I would design a 260 EXTREME with an extra 0.030-0.050 FB which would require a 3" magazine length (likely a 6.5X 55 Magazine in a Tikka , a Sako 75 III action or either of the Win/Montana/Kimber Short actions. Here is how the 143 ELD-X set up in one rifle at 0.005" off the lands at COAL 2,895". The RL 26 Ladder shot in this rifle showed potential for a safe load at 2900-2950 fps which will likely be confirmed by QL. That is 200-250 fps faster than the factory ammunition and would likely be improved on by my wildcat design at perhaps 3000 fps which outdoes the 6.5 PRC Factory Load.

[/URL][/IMG]
The 260 EXTREME would have a 7.5" twist to stabilize the 150 SMK and would look like this or maybe a little more like CM with 0.230" -250"FB to accommodate the Hornady Bullets . Perhaps 3000 FPS with 46-47 grains of RL 26????

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[Atlas]

Got out to the range today.

Had a Caldwell The Rock Deluxe setup for front and rear rest this time, rather than just a square bag and my hand.


6.5 Creedmoor-
Reloader 26-
Hornady 147gr ELDM-
Winchester LRMP-
2.802" COAL-
-1degree C-
New Hornady brass, chamfered only

gr FPS

46gr
2669
2652
2682
2691
2701

46.3- ~.2" group, taking away the shot I pulled.
2715
2725
2694
2695
2704

46.6
2692
2697
2672
2738
2676

47
2716
2698
2689
2725
didn't record.

 

[Atlas]

I covered a 147gr eldM in jiffy and stuffed it in an empty case with a dent in the neck to hold it in place.
Chambered it, and my CBTO is 2.288, and COAL is 2.927.

I've been loading it to 2.800, almost 1/8" off the lands.

Lots of guys online mention loading .040-.020" off the lands, but holy hell a seating depth difference of .100" seems like a HUGE step from where I am now.

At what point do you start messing with the seating depth? Does it help with ES/SD at all?

 

[Eynhallow]

You could take a look at a 2 Part article that Berger Bullets has provided on COAL/CBTO

h ttps://bergerbullets.com/effects-of-cartridge-over-all-length-coal-and-cartridge-base-to-ogive-cbto-part-1/