6.5 Creedmoor the rising star?

From what I've seen in looking for a 6.5mm factory rifle, the creedmore is probably the most common chambering going right now in that calibre. But I still haven't found one....holding out for a .260 I guess. But that would partly explain its popularity as people are always going to gravitate to the 6.5s. What I would really like is the Kimber montana 84M in .260...held one in the store the other day...they are somethin else for what they want for them!
 
Mikeness,
You seem like a nice chap. I don't need internal/external ballistics explained to me, but if the others want it feel free to do so, it's your thread.
I'm all ears as to how the 6.5 Creedmoor is the best thing to come along in ages with the 6.5mm. It looks like a 22-250 case necked up and blown out. It's been done before and I'm sure I could find a pic of it in P.O. Ackley's book. It looks like a fine cartridge that would fill the mid range niche perfectly and cycle for repeaters. For short and long range there are better choices. I've heard Hornady Creedmoor brass is soft and the future of any chambering is it's availability of brass and ammo.
Mr. Tubbs is a famous shooter and he could beat anyone with a standard .308 Win with his tube guns or an M14 in Camp Perry. The man is pure shooting talent.

I don't know what experience you have with long range shooting, but I know what works to 1000yds and what cases I've tried. I also know what others have tried. I fully understand case design and have had reamers designed around them just to experiment. I was playing with the .260 before Remington came out with it and have always appreciated the 6.5x55 case in standard or Ackley. When shooting 140gr VLD's, there is a velocity node that does it right at about 2,950fps. The 6.5x55 Ackley and 6.5x284 case make it happen easily without high pressures. It's what I see in the winners circle in 1000yds matches and the 6.5mm bullet with F-Class.
The 6mm, 7mm and 30 Cal. are another story.
 
I get your point and i believe the 6.5x284 is the record holder at the moment at the 1000 yard f class im not sure but Ive herd? the fact that I was getting at is 6.5,s are well under rated in North America. Its nice to see new cartridges come out like the creedmoor and Grendal by far the king is 6.5x55 we will see how long these new cartridges will stick around and if they are long gone the 6.5x55 will always be there....and by the way Hornady claims its a new ground up cartridge not me.
lejarretnoir said:
Mikeness,
You seem like a nice chap. I don't need internal/external ballistics explained to me, but if the others want it feel free to do so, it's your thread.
I'm all ears as to how the 6.5 Creedmoor is the best thing to come along in ages with the 6.5mm. It looks like a 22-250 case necked up and blown out. It's been done before and I'm sure I could find a pic of it in P.O. Ackley's book. It looks like a fine cartridge that would fill the mid range niche perfectly and cycle for repeaters. For short and long range there are better choices. I've heard Hornady Creedmoor brass is soft and the future of any chambering is it's availability of brass and ammo.
Mr. Tubbs is a famous shooter and he could beat anyone with a standard .308 Win with his tube guns or an M14 in Camp Perry. The man is pure shooting talent.

I don't know what experience you have with long range shooting, but I know what works to 1000yds and what cases I've tried. I also know what others have tried. I fully understand case design and have had reamers designed around them just to experiment. I was playing with the .260 before Remington came out with it and have always appreciated the 6.5x55 case in standard or Ackley. When shooting 140gr VLD's, there is a velocity node that does it right at about 2,950fps. The 6.5x55 Ackley and 6.5x284 case make it happen easily without high pressures. It's what I see in the winners circle in 1000yds matches and the 6.5mm bullet with F-Class.
The 6mm, 7mm and 30 Cal. are another story.
Click to expand...
 
I won't argue that the 6.5x55 is king. My most accurate factory hunting rifle is a Rem 700 Classic in it.

I really like the 6.5 Grendal too. The only reason I favour the 6.5x47L is because of the great brass. I hear some guys are using that brass and fireforming it in a 6.5 Creedmoor chamber. I'm still skeptical as to whether the small primer in that case/bore is optimal. I'm still getting reports of delayed ignition. Small primers and powder choices are critical for best performance. The fact that the Creedmoor uses a large primer is a plus to me.
When I start seeing the 6.5x47L do well at the matches, I'll take a closer look at it. At present, the 6BR rules up to 600 meters and nothing has knocked it out yet.
 
Spent alot of time mucking with 6.5's in F Open and as lejarretnoir has suggested, the goal is 2900'ish fps with a 139/140/142 something or other. There are only a few cases that do this with all the other parameters we want.

6.5 Swede, 260improved/6.5 Mystic, 6.5x284 (although the case volume is far more then necessary). Any case larger is highly ineffecient and way too hard on bores (6.5x284 is bad enough). There is the next higher node which cases like the 6.5-06 can reach but are just too errosive to keep on a steady basis.

The rest go slower. There is no case that is more accurate then any other - we know how to make all of these shoot. So it boils down to displacement, bullets desired to be shot and how fast you want/need to move it.

Where the 6.5 Creedmore DOES have a nice set up is for US High power shooting from BOLT ACTION RIFLES using very short 308 mags (ie M1A and AR10 type mags). If someone eventually develops something for the longer AI/ AA mags, then this might become moot.

Not saying the 260Rem can't work cause it can. But that is "old" news and doesn't have that ###y improved shape. By the way, location of bullet base/boatail relative to the neck/shoulder junction has little to do with accuracy.

The Creedmore has gained support in the AR platform despite a case shape that work as negatives. Sharp shoulders and cases with low body taper are NOT desired in semi autos. I suspect that clean match rifles and properly set up mags resolve potential issues but there are issues never the less.

So this is really a narrow niche player... alot like the 6BR and 6.5 Grendel/LBC. Make a dandy hunting rifle as I am sure that is where the bulk of recent sales have gone. Not a bad thing at all but no 1 size fits all solution.

The US is finally waking up to the benefits of the 6.5 cal which we can be polite and offer as 50yrs late (it is far longer then that). The consumer mood is into smaller "more effecient" packages since magnumitis seems to have left the building.

All manner of cutesie cases like the 300 blackout (old news by the way), 6.5 Grendel/LBC, even the grand daddy 7TCU are getting press.

Not a bad thing at all and I wish Hrn plenty of sales....

Jerry

PS if you really want to see an explosion of small and superbly "efficient" accurate cartridges, look up Elgin Gates, Donaldson, Gibbs and others from the 60's, 70's and 80's. Handgun silhouette gave birth to many of these little gems so in vogue today. Like alot of modern music, remix an old idea, stir it up with some flash and jiggle, call it new and make some money.
 
lejarretnoir said:
I won't argue that the 6.5x55 is king. My most accurate factory hunting rifle is a Rem 700 Classic in it.

I really like the 6.5 Grendal too. The only reason I favour the 6.5x47L is because of the great brass. I hear some guys are using that brass and fireforming it in a 6.5 Creedmoor chamber. I'm still skeptical as to whether the small primer in that case/bore is optimal. I'm still getting reports of delayed ignition. Small primers and powder choices are critical for best performance. The fact that the Creedmoor uses a large primer is a plus to me.
When I start seeing the 6.5x47L do well at the matches, I'll take a closer look at it. At present, the 6BR rules up to 600 meters and nothing has knocked it out yet.
Click to expand...

6.5x47L is way too short to make creedmore brass. Even the 22-250 will end up short, not that is really matters.

Jerry
 
lejarretnoir said:
Yes, very short necks, but I guess it's better than no brass. Better off reforming 260 brass, but there's the effort involved.
That's my real feeling about the Creedmoor. If brass disappears so does the interest.
Click to expand...

You can easily form brass with any 308 Win brass and Hornady's hydro forming dies.
This solutions involves another 300$ in specialized case forming dies but it guarantee an infinite supply of high quality Creedmoor brass cases.

There are always solutions (if you're willing to spend infinite resources on a problem ;) )

Alex
 
NICE!! well said!!
Mystic Precision said:
Spent alot of time mucking with 6.5's in F Open and as lejarretnoir has suggested, the goal is 2900'ish fps with a 139/140/142 something or other. There are only a few cases that do this with all the other parameters we want.

6.5 Swede, 260improved/6.5 Mystic, 6.5x284 (although the case volume is far more then necessary). Any case larger is highly ineffecient and way too hard on bores (6.5x284 is bad enough). There is the next higher node which cases like the 6.5-06 can reach but are just too errosive to keep on a steady basis.

The rest go slower. There is no case that is more accurate then any other - we know how to make all of these shoot. So it boils down to displacement, bullets desired to be shot and how fast you want/need to move it.

Where the 6.5 Creedmore DOES have a nice set up is for US High power shooting from BOLT ACTION RIFLES using very short 308 mags (ie M1A and AR10 type mags). If someone eventually develops something for the longer AI/ AA mags, then this might become moot.

Not saying the 260Rem can't work cause it can. But that is "old" news and doesn't have that ###y improved shape. By the way, location of bullet base/boatail relative to the neck/shoulder junction has little to do with accuracy.

The Creedmore has gained support in the AR platform despite a case shape that work as negatives. Sharp shoulders and cases with low body taper are NOT desired in semi autos. I suspect that clean match rifles and properly set up mags resolve potential issues but there are issues never the less.

So this is really a narrow niche player... alot like the 6BR and 6.5 Grendel/LBC. Make a dandy hunting rifle as I am sure that is where the bulk of recent sales have gone. Not a bad thing at all but no 1 size fits all solution.

The US is finally waking up to the benefits of the 6.5 cal which we can be polite and offer as 50yrs late (it is far longer then that). The consumer mood is into smaller "more effecient" packages since magnumitis seems to have left the building.

All manner of cutesie cases like the 300 blackout (old news by the way), 6.5 Grendel/LBC, even the grand daddy 7TCU are getting press.

Not a bad thing at all and I wish Hrn plenty of sales....

Jerry

PS if you really want to see an explosion of small and superbly "efficient" accurate cartridges, look up Elgin Gates, Donaldson, Gibbs and others from the 60's, 70's and 80's. Handgun silhouette gave birth to many of these little gems so in vogue today. Like alot of modern music, remix an old idea, stir it up with some flash and jiggle, call it new and make some money.
Click to expand...
 
I'm kind of glad this topic popped up. Glad because there seems to be quite a few knowledgable 6.5 guys here. I'm considering a 6.5 build on a Savage target action(I already have it) and not sure whether to go 260AI or 6.5x55AI... Is there any advantage of one over the other?
I know I would have to fireform, not concerned about that. And Lapua makes brass for both. I'm kinda partial to the 6.5x55 but would love to hear what you guys have to say.

Also, sorry to hijack, but it seemed like everything that needed to be said had been said.
 
Add one more 6.5 fan to the list.
I have rifles chambered in 260 Remington [tight necked]; 260 Ackley Improved; 6.5x55 [third barrel on this 700 "Classic"]
6.5x55 Ackley Improved; 264 Win Mag; 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenaur [presently not functional]
I love the 6.5's I shoot at least two of them every spring at 1000 yards.
Shot both my deer last fall with the 260....it goes on and on, lol.
Regards, Eagleye
 
blueoval56 said:
...not sure whether to go 260AI or 6.5x55AI... Is there any advantage of one over the other?...
Click to expand...
I've shot both and wore out a few barrels with them. I find the 6.5x55 Ackley more flexible and easier to tune. You can drive it faster if need be for heavier bullets. It's a longer cartridge so small loading ports won't eject loaded rounds. With the .260 Ackley and 140grs bullets I had to use "N" series Vihtavouri powders to get velocities in the mid 2,900fps without driving the pressures to high on hot days. Both cases shoot well, but I prefer the 6.5x55 Ackley for 1000yds. It depends on what type of shooting you want to do with it. If you want it for tactical repeater use I'd go for the .260 Ackley. Lots of guys love that combo and I think North Shore Barrels has a gun for sale setup like that.
 
lejarretnoir said:
I've shot both and wore out a few barrels with them. I find the 6.5x55 Ackley more flexible and easier to tune. You can drive it faster if need be for heavier bullets. It's a longer cartridge so small loading ports won't eject loaded rounds. With the .260 Ackley and 140grs bullets I had to use "N" series Vihtavouri powders to get velocities in the mid 2,900fps without driving the pressures to high on hot days. Both cases shoot well, but I prefer the 6.5x55 Ackley for 1000yds. It depends on what type of shooting you want to do with it. If you want it for tactical repeater use I'd go for the .260 Ackley. Lots of guys love that combo and I think North Shore Barrels has a gun for sale setup like that.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the knowledge. No tactical shooting for this guy. Just having fun off my back porch with 2000 yards to play with ;)
I'm looking to replace my medium cartridge 1000 yard gun with something that will do a better job in the wind. And, well, life's too short to stick with the same damn thing for too long. It's currently a Savage model 12 single shot 308. Been great to me so far but looking to step things up a bit that's all.
 
I think the only advantage to one or the other is velocity or action length of your choice.I think plain and simple 6.5 in any form is a good choice. Most are easy to reload ,awesome bullets i think these are the facts plain and simple. But remember all the velocity in the world does not replace consistency!! I would rather a .2 group as a constant than 3000 fps and a .5 group once in awhile and replace my barrel or set it back every 1500 rounds or less!! remember shoot more shoot better!

blueoval56 said:
I'm kind of glad this topic popped up. Glad because there seems to be quite a few knowledgable 6.5 guys here. I'm considering a 6.5 build on a Savage target action(I already have it) and not sure whether to go 260AI or 6.5x55AI... Is there any advantage of one over the other?
I know I would have to fireform, not concerned about that. And Lapua makes brass for both. I'm kinda partial to the 6.5x55 but would love to hear what you guys have to say.

Also, sorry to hijack, but it seemed like everything that needed to be said had been said.
Click to expand...
 
Mikeness said:
...But remember all the velocity in the world does not replace consistency!! I would rather a .2 group as a constant than 3000 fps and a .5 group once in awhile and replace my barrel or set it back every 1500 rounds or less!! remember shoot more shoot better!
Click to expand...
You should really consider the 6.5 BR case then if this is your goal. Tons of Lapua 6BR brass which IMO is the best Ive seen if you want more consistency. I plan on building one in the future. I remember another gunsmith who built a benchrest gun in it and it shot in the .1's. Getting good custom bullets in 6.5mm is the key for even better consistency.

The 6.5x55 Ackley and 6.5x284 were designed for hart hitting long range and minimal recoil in F-Class. Accuracy is there and I can't ask for more.

YMMV
 
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Many facts make consistency,shooter,trigger,kick,,action,barrel,load ,bullet and many more I see your in love with the ackley and a fine round it is.I consider and have shot many 6.5 s here and Europe and am very familiar with most all of them. I also know which cases i can reform and which i cant and I see there is a little lack of info on your side as one cannot reform 6.5x47 lapua to a creedmoor.
lejarretnoir said:
You should really consider the 6.5 BR case then if this is your goal. Tons of Lapua 6BR brass which IMO is the best Ive seen if you want more consistency. I plan on building one in the future. I remember another gunsmith who built a benchrest gun in it and it shot in the .1's. Getting good custom bullets in 6.5mm is the key for even better consistency.

The 6.5x55 Ackley and 6.5x284 were designed for hart hitting long range and minimal recoil in F-Class. Accuracy is there and I can't ask for more.

YMMV
Click to expand...
 
Mikeness said:
Many facts make consistency,shooter,trigger,kick,,action,barrel,load ,bullet and many more I see your in love with the ackley and a fine round it is.I consider and have shot many 6.5 s here and Europe and am very familiar with most all of them. I also know which cases i can reform and which i cant and I see there is a little lack of info on your side as one cannot reform 6.5x47 lapua to a creedmoor.
Click to expand...
Very well. What case works?
I read about people converting the 6.5x47L to a Creedmoor. No I haven't done it, but why would I as I have no need for the cartridge.
BTW, I'm not in love with the Ackley. It's just one of many cartridge designs which of course the Creedmoor is somewhat based on. I tried a few suggestions since Creedmore ammo and brass is unobtanium and now I'm done.

Why don't you tell us all the facts about consistency?
What makes the Creedmoor the rising star as I haven't seen any info from you?
 
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