6.5 Grendel and offspring.

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hend238

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I'm looking for informed opinions or lessons learned from those of you who have experience with the 6.5 Grendel or it's 6mm derivatives. I understand the Grendel cartridge was designed originally for the AR15 platform but I'm considering re-barreling a Sako 75 Varminter that is currently chambered in 6mm PPC. My primary intended use would be for long range varmint hunting, specifically prairie dogs. Long range in this case would be 500 yards and beyond. Why the Grendel? Well, because I love my Sako 75 but I have a few PPC's already and want to play with something different because, I can. More importantly it is because I am bound by the PPC bolt face and unwilling to modify it.

I am posting in this forum because I don't want to hear predominately from the AR crowd as their requirements, and restrictions, are different based on the platform in which they are using. I shoot short range BR and Fclass so I understand the finer points of precision shooting and reloading. I am not saying the AR crowd does not!

Bullet selection is occupying my thoughts these days manly because I'll need to make a decision when it is time to order the reamer. There are not many, if any, rapid expansion bullets available in 6mm or 6.5 mm that would be ideal for the ranges well beyond 500 yards. Of course one could utilize the Scenar, Match King, VLD, Amax, etc bullets but they are not ideal varmint bullets. And lets be honest, we all like to see the dramatic down range results of when our bullet connects with a prairie dog. Perhaps at extended ranges (for varmints) it wouldn't matter the bullet type used when considering terminal performance. I understand of course I can't have the best of both worlds when it comes to seating depth. On a side note, the magazine of my Sako 75 will allow a COAL of 2.375 so lots of room there to seat long, keeping the bullet base in the neck and out of the case. Well, not the 140g 6.5 variety but those are heavier than I would use anyway in a 6.5 Grendel.

Thanks for humoring this nonsensical post of mine. I'm slightly bored right now but objective comments and opinions are still appreciated.
 
While I can't comment on the grendel cartridge.
Have you actually shot any small stuff with the 6mm 105 amax?
I haven't shot prairie dogs with them. But they make a pretty good mess of ground hogs. I feel like they are almost explosive as the 87 Vmax. Which I wouldn't rule out either. The BC is decent and I had great accuracy and even better terminal performance with it out of my factory barreled 243.
 
No I have not. The only rifles I have in 6mm are chambered in 6ppc and I've pretty much used target bullets exclusively. But I am considering the 6mmAR which is the 6.5 Grendel necked down to 6mm. There are also variants of this necked down version with a 40 deg shoulder. I'm not sure how well that case with a 40 deg shoulder would feed from a magazine though. (This is where I need input from the AR crowd.) The Grendel case appeals to me also because I should be able to form them from my old PPC brass I no longer use for competition. They may need to be annealed first though.
 
I think you may be looking in the wrong place. For a LR varmint rifle WITH a show, you need impact velocity and a fragile bullet to expand at the lower speeds.

Going to a bigger bore, means a lower BC and heavier bullet. With a limited case volume, that limits your muzzle velocity. Add in the low BC, things will slow down that at LR, expansion will be limited. Then you have the whole wind drift problem making hits pretty darn hard.

My recommendation is going to the 22PPC. Now launch 80 to 90gr bullets at elevated velocities and the impacts at 500 to 800yds will be quite spectacular. The wind drift numbers are way better so hits are easier.

I have played with the 223/90gr set up in my competition FTR rifles. WOW, it can be super accurate. at a muzzle velocity of 2850fps, 500m impacts are alot of fun. In the larger PPC, getting to this and even faster speeds will be easy.


Enjoy...

Jerry
 
Jerry, thanks for chiming in. Your input is always insightful.

I understand the requirements needed for a SHOW at long range. I guess I need to decide how important that is. A hit on a prairie dog will be a kill regardless of range. Within the practical range of the cartridge anyway. Maybe you're right that I am looking in the wrong place. Perhaps I should be only concerned with hitting the target.

That said, I already have a Sako Vixen in 22 PPC and a 40X chambered in 22-250AI and a 22 BR build on the back burner. I have the 22 caliber angle covered...for now, and would like to stick with the 6.5 or 6 mm variety.

Edit:

I should reiterate that I intend to shoot well beyond 500 yards. If I recall, you abandoned the 223/90g set up for 1000 yard FTR. I'd like to have the ability to accurately shoot out to that distance and is why I'm leaning towards the 6mm and 6.5 mm. My 22 BR plans however will be geared towards that distance.
 
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If you are thinking of necking 6.5 Grendel down to 6mm you should look at 6mmAR and 6mmAR Turbo. Both are turn key cartridges with reamers, dies and data available. Both are intended to feed in ARs so bolt action from a mag should be fairly issue free (If it will fit your mag length).
 
Yep, I've considered those two 6mm options but as I mentioned a few posts above, I wasn't sure how the 40 deg shoulder would affect mag feeding. But it's as you said, they are intended for the AR so shouldn't be a problem. My mag will easily accommodate these and should feed with no problems as the PPC case feeds just fine. What I don't know is if AR mags designed to feed the Grendel case still function flawlessly when the shoulder is blown out to 40 deg. I once owned a Rem BDL in 22-250 that I re-chambered to 22-250AI. Case feeding was ok but not nearly as smooth as it was before. That could have been more an issue with the body taper. I'm not sure.
 
I remember Bill Wylde using my .223 Ackley 40° reamer for an AR-15 to test and he said it fed fine with AR mags.

Having said that, I've designed reamers with 35° shoulders for bolt gun mag feeding [aka .284 Win] and they perform flawlessly.
I'll be using the 6.5 Grendel case necked up to .30 cal for another project later, but shoulder will still be 30°.
 
hend238 said:
Jerry, thanks for chiming in. Your input is always insightful.

I understand the requirements needed for a SHOW at long range. I guess I need to decide how important that is. A hit on a prairie dog will be a kill regardless of range. Within the practical range of the cartridge anyway. Maybe you're right that I am looking in the wrong place. Perhaps I should be only concerned with hitting the target.

That said, I already have a Sako Vixen in 22 PPC and a 40X chambered in 22-250AI and a 22 BR build on the back burner. I have the 22 caliber angle covered...for now, and would like to stick with the 6.5 or 6 mm variety.

Edit:

I should reiterate that I intend to shoot well beyond 500 yards. If I recall, you abandoned the 223/90g set up for 1000 yard FTR. I'd like to have the ability to accurately shoot out to that distance and is why I'm leaning towards the 6mm and 6.5 mm. My 22 BR plans however will be geared towards that distance.
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For FTR competing against 308s where every shot is scored, the 22cal isn't going to work as well. BUT you are varminting, not paper punching - so you miss a few, doesn't matter. There is nothing you are proposing that will offer a higher hit rate at any indicated distance wrt to exterior ballistics.

The fast 22cal will eat the slow 6.5 wrt to ease of hitting a distant small target.

If you cannot drive a bullet due to drift and dispersion, it really doesn't matter what the paper suggests. NO hit, no joy.... so focus first on hitting the target, then what that impact will do.

If you already have 22cals, why not try some of these heavy for cal bullets and prove for yourself what they will and will not do.

you are already had a huge disadvantage in limiting to the PPC/Russian case. If the goal is truly to have LR varminting hitting power, you need to start thinking bigger.

I am really liking the 6XC.

Jerry
 
We're getting off track. I don't want to discuss how one cartridge is better than the other for this reason or that. I wish to keep the discussion within the Grendel family of cartridges.

Jerry, I do agree with most of what you are saying however but I'm not looking for input on the best choice for long range varminting. I'm very aware of what that entails. I wish to stick with my Sako 75 and it's PPC bolt face because that is my desire. Disadvantaged or not, that is what I'm choosing to work with. Whether I go through with this project or not remains to be seen. I do appreciate your objective point of view though. :)
 
hend238 said:
We're getting off track. I don't want to discuss how one cartridge is better than the other for this reason or that. I wish to keep the discussion within the Grendel family of cartridges.
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Getting slightly off track may not be what your asking but a thread going slightly askew is sometimes good for others watching. This thread answered a few questions I have and I didn't even have to post.

Thank you for asking about the Grendel, and thanks to the others taking the liberty to make suggestions slightly outside the discussion.
 
redshooter said:
Getting slightly off track may not be what your asking but a thread going slightly askew is sometimes good for others watching. This thread answered a few questions I have and I didn't even have to post.

Thank you for asking about the Grendel, and thanks to the others taking the liberty to make suggestions slightly outside the discussion.
Click to expand...

I can't argue with you there.
 
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