6.5 Load Development - Sanity Check

dubious

dubious

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Hi all,

Looking for some help developing a load for my 6.5 creedmoor. A bit of context:

Components
H4350
Starline SP brass
Hornady 140gr ELD-M
CCI Magnum Small Rifle

Reloading
I measure everything! I use mechanical calliper (with Hornady bullet and brass comparator). Everything is within one or two thousands
Brass, I bump shoulders 2 thousands with redding full length die
I measure powder with an old power thrower, then on the mechanical scale with a trickler, I can see the impact of a single kernel of powder, I estimate my powder accuracy to be +- 0.01 grain
I use a precision bullet seater
2.850 COAL

Equipment
Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph (mix of sunny and overcast)
Bergara B14 Wilderness with MDT Chassis and other upgrades
Thin barrel heats up fast

I started with a ladder load from 38.8gr to 40.8gr. Seem to be a flat spot around 39.9gr so loaded 4 x 5 loads (39.8-40.1gr).
Then had another run today from 40.6gr to 41.0gr.
(both times I shot from lowest to highest, barrel temp might be affecting later groups)

The results:

SIlQ4st.png



I was hoping for slightly better results. Ideally, single digit SD and ES below 20. My load at 40.6gr is close... Should I keep going higher or is tis "good enough"? I don't shoot competitions or anything and my longest shot at my current range is 300y, but still, i would like to make the best load i can...

Thoughts?
 
2 things, don't bump your brass back at all until the bolt starts to get sticky.......ditch the CCI primer and use a federal primer, for what ever reason the lock time and firing pin strength on the bergara is not compatible with cci hard primer cups. get speed out of your mind as well, bergara barrels are slow, slow enough to match tikka
 
I'll try expanding the case until they stick, thanks.

But CCI is all I have, and all I can buy right now. I was piercing CCI Small riffle primers at 41gr, but the magnums seem to be holing up better...

I'm not stuck on FPS, but would like good SD and ES
 
Based on some of these results, I really question the accuracy of the chrono

I tried to get the shades/covers over the slots but today the shades weren't covering the slots on the chrono
 
you can tune the ES/SD with bullet seating depth, if that load shoots as good as you do, and your happy with it, inside of 300 yards you're going to be just fine. There is a lot more to accuracy then the ES/SD, in fact, some of the best shooting loads at great distance have the worse es/sd, don't get so mixed up in the numbers, before the internet and someone stating single digits on every forum, no one cared.....and those of us that know.....we still don't care.......numbers effect a computer generated equation but they don't hold so true out in the real world......computers aren't always right
 
I do not do as much computer stuff as others, but like "yodave" says - if I can paraphrase - "holes on target do not lie" - my corollary to that is "show me your targets" that prove something helps or not, for you and your gear. Not what Chi Chi Rodrigues (EDIT: wrong game - I meant Speedy Gonzales) typed on Internet, or any other guy on U-tube, but your targets, with your stuff.

Op - from "old days" - quoting your post - you "measure everything" - when was last time that you calibrated your calliper? How do you know that the number that it produced is "real"? I do not mean "zeroing it" - I mean calibrating it - like my Mitutoyo micrometer has a 1.0000" standard - under specific temp, etc., the mic has to read 1.0000" to be within "calibration". I do not know of any brand of calliper that comes with similar standard - more than willing to hear of one ...
 
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I get what you're saying, but I'm just trying to limit the variables, because my shooting could def use some improvement... But how can you tell what the problem is if you don't have a control

50y. First group (40.6gr) center, second top left, two rounds top right on next group didn't register on chrono (i moved it) so other groups were shot off target to get a reading...
Not my finest work

YB7jUr6.png
 
test your loads at a minimum of 100 yards, especially when using a heavy for caliber bullet with a boat-tail, chances are at 50 yards they are still really wobbling and trying to stabilize
 
I would:
1.focus on lower your SD to single digit and find the SD node
2.Use CBTO instead of COAL
3.focus on neck tension and use expander mandrel
 
dubious said:
I'll try expanding the case until they stick, thanks.

But CCI is all I have, and all I can buy right now. I was piercing CCI Small riffle primers at 41gr, but the magnums seem to be holing up better...

I'm not stuck on FPS, but would like good SD and ES
Click to expand...
Accuracy matters more than chronograph numbers. How is the accuracy at various distances?
Cat
 
yodave said:
test your loads at a minimum of 100 yards, especially when using a heavy for caliber bullet with a boat-tail, chances are at 50 yards they are still really wobbling and trying to stabilize
Click to expand...

I don't think 140 gr. is really all that heavy for caliber; the CMs are usually rifled to optimize 120-140 gr., but certainly 100 yards will give you a better idea of what exactly is happening with the bullets.
 
yodave said:
2 things, don't bump your brass back at all until the bolt starts to get sticky.......ditch the CCI primer and use a federal primer, for what ever reason the lock time and firing pin strength on the bergara is not compatible with cci hard primer cups. get speed out of your mind as well, bergara barrels are slow, slow enough to match tikka
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Tikka barrels do tend to give lower velocities, but they are so accurate it's heartwarming.

Bergara may have taken a cue from Tikka???

OP, I don't see a lot wrong with your groups. They may actually tighten up a bit at 100 yds.

Your rifle isn't a match rifle, it's a hunting rifle. Expecting match accuracy from it, because you're using high end bullets just isn't reasonable.
 
As you're working your way up the ladder with powder charge weights, the most important thing to measure is group sizes. You should see them tighten up, then get looser, then tighten up, then looser again if you cover a big enough range. Pick one of the tight spots and stick with it! That's one of the "nodes" your rifle/bullet/powder combination likes.

Main function of the chrono is to be sure you're not loading too hot, so you don't damage the rifle and risk yourself. The ES/SD/velocity data is interesting and can help understand what's happening, but group size is what we want.
 
If the CCI primers are a known issue with the Bergara I would trade or switch to Fed as mentioned. Or go to LRP brass?

How far off the lands are you?
 
mikeelliot said:
If the CCI primers are a known issue with the Bergara I would trade or switch to Fed as mentioned. Or go to LRP brass?

How far off the lands are you?
Click to expand...

There is NO brand of rifles that know the brand names of Primers ! Simply BS that Bergera rifles will not shoot good groups with CCI primers but better ones with FED ? primers - MAYBE a certain bullet - powder combos but that’s All . RJ
 
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remington jim said:
There is NO brand of rifles that know the brand names of Primers ! Simply BS that Bergera rifles will not shoot good groups with CCI primers but better ones with FED ? primers - MAYBE a certain bullet - powder combos but that’s All . RJ
Click to expand...

There's a whole lot of truth right there, but I will admit, I have a Remington that does not seem to be able to ignite certain types of primers.

I won't blame it on the primer though, it's likely time for a spring to be replaced.
 
I loaded 50 rounds at 40.6gr, I'll see how they group at 100 and 300y

bearhunter said:
OP, I don't see a lot wrong with your groups. They may actually tighten up a bit at 100 yds.
Your rifle isn't a match rifle, it's a hunting rifle. Expecting match accuracy from it, because you're using high end bullets just isn't reasonable.
Click to expand...

Good point

JJ-65 said:
I would cut to the chase, ditch the chronograph, load 43.0 grs H-4350 with 140’s and shoot some groups @700 yds
Click to expand...

After these maybe I'll work my way up from 41 to 43 and see what happens

mikeelliot said:
If the CCI primers are a known issue with the Bergara I would trade or switch to Fed as mentioned. Or go to LRP brass?
How far off the lands are you?
Click to expand...

I have some LRP brass but no LR primers, also nothing available right now other than CCI SR. and SMR. My Bergara doesn't like SR (I was piercing primers at 41gr)
I've been trying to find a consistent load, then was going to focus on distance to lands for harmonics and groups... Right now I'm seating everything consistently, but I haven't measured distance to lands


Thanks for all the tips
 
bearhunter said:
There's a whole lot of truth right there, but I will admit, I have a Remington that does not seem to be able to ignite certain types of primers.

I won't blame it on the primer though, it's likely time for a spring to be replaced.
Click to expand...

I just changed the spring on a Sportco .223 that had misfire issues, all good now!
It would dent the primer, but would not ignite.
From what I have learned, CCI primers have a bit harder cup than a lot of other brands....
Cat
 
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