6.5 Load Development - Sanity Check

I just changed the spring on a Sportco .223 that had misfire issues, all good now!
It would dent the primer, but would not ignite.
From what I have learned, CCI primers have a bit harder cup than a lot of other brandes....
Cat

I use CCI primers almost exclusively for everything, other than Berdan primed cases.

Some rifles, especially some match rifles will come from the factory or the smith and will have their firing pin springs altered to keep let off more consistent. It works and I'm not going to knock it, because I've just done something similar on a 17 Rem chambered Tikka M55.

I don't like to take more than a single coil from a factory spring. That's just me though.

I've found when taking off more, the issues Yodave, so astutely brings to light, do happen.

I've also had factory springs that weren't up to par or the jobber used poor quality wire to wrap those springs.

I use CCI primers in everything, simply because they always work, both in milsurps and commercial/custom rifles with very consistent ignition qualities, which are very necessary for accuracy.

I just replaced the spring in a pre 64, mod 70 Winchester, chambered in the ubiquitous 30-06 for a fellow that's been hand loading it for close to 60 years, after he got it, used, from his father for his 15th birthday. He's never felt the need for another big game rifle in the field, although he has several others.

He brought it to me a couple of weeks ago and wanted it ready for the Aug 15 LEH he has scheduled for Northern BC.

I had a bit of trouble figuring out why accuracy had been deteriorating over the last couple of years, to the point of the rifle being unusable for hunting.

The bore is verging on excellent, maybe a total of 1000 rounds since new and that would likely be generous. Bit of leade wear of course but still slugging out at .3085 and properly cleaned.

It wasn't until I started taking apart the bolt that I realized what the incredibly smooth bolt handle lift was about.

The firing pin spring had lost a lot of tension.

The new spring, thanks Jack, was at least .250 in (.5cm) longer than the original.

As soon as the new spring was installed, ignition became consistent again and accuracy was better than acceptable.

Maybe changing to a softer primer would have made a difference????

The owner is happy and his Great Grandson is soon going to be very happy his upcoming 15th birthday next spring.

Ed is starting to find the hills much steeper than they used to be and the extra 35 pounds he packed on over the years isn't making them any less so. His heart is also giving issues, so it's time to pass the treasured hierloom on to someone that appreciates it as much as he does.
 
Why such a long COAL? Like someone else said testing should be done at 100 yards. How much H4350 do you have? Perhaps try some other powders? I know H4350 is all the hype for creed but it's not the end all be all by any means. IMR 4350 is constantly popping up. My best powder has been Vhitavouri with single digit SD's. If you ever see them on the used market worth a shot. I really like Superformance on my 147 ELDMs as well. 6.5 Staball is also readily available but i haven't had the best groupings with it, good enough tho.

Different rifles might like different powders. Also play around with different bullets. Whats the purpose of you load? For hunting or just benchrest target practice? For hunting all those numbers don't really matter and for benchrest it will be a lot of work but fun at the same time to find the perfect load.
 
One of the things that relatively new reloaders miss-out on is prioritizing their tuning variables. OP is measuring his powder to +/- 0.01 of a grain, while shooting at 50 yards, unknown bullet jump, and only using one bullet/powder combo. As others have stated, getting caught up on ES and SD as a major determinant can cause dubious results. I would suggest trying another bullet weight/configuration as part of your trials - even a flat based Hornady Interlock would do. A good bullet (and I dont mean expensive) will show promise right out of the gate.
I note you are partial resizing with your FL die. FL dies can cause runout issues due to the expander ball "walking". You might consider picking up a neck sizing die - its much more convenient to use, and is less prone to runout. And I must apologize in advance if I send you down another rabbit hole. ;)
 
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Why such a long COAL? Like someone else said testing should be done at 100 yards. How much H4350 do you have? Perhaps try some other powders? I know H4350 is all the hype for creed but it's not the end all be all by any means. IMR 4350 is constantly popping up. My best powder has been Vhitavouri with single digit SD's. If you ever see them on the used market worth a shot. I really like Superformance on my 147 ELDMs as well. 6.5 Staball is also readily available but i haven't had the best groupings with it, good enough tho.

Different rifles might like different powders. Also play around with different bullets. Whats the purpose of you load? For hunting or just benchrest target practice? For hunting all those numbers don't really matter and for benchrest it will be a lot of work but fun at the same time to find the perfect load.

I don't remember why I ended up with 2.850 coal, I think measured the lands a while ago and decided to start here.
My only creed powder is H4350, i have 4 lbs. I have more bullets but the ELD-M 140s seemed like a good place to start.
This is for benchrest hobby shooting, for fun :)


One of the things that relatively new reloaders miss-out on is prioritizing their tuning variables. OP is measuring his powder to +/- 0.01 of a grain, while shooting at 50 yards, unknown bullet jump, and only using one bullet/powder combo. As others have stated, getting caught up on ES and SD as a major determinant can cause a dubious results. I would suggest trying another bullet weight/configuration as part of your trials - even a flat based Hornady Interlock would do. A good bullet (and I dont mean expensive) will show promise right out of the gate.
I note you are partial resizing with your FL die. FL dies can cause runout issues due to the expander ball "walking". You might consider picking up a neck sizing die - its much more convenient to use, and is less prone to runout. An I must apologize in advance if I send you down another rabbit hole. ;)

I needed to to start somewhere, so I'm trying to be as consistent as possible... I plan on changing other variables in the future but if I keep changing everything I won't really learn much, at least that's my point of view.
I just measured and my 2.850 coal gets me 25 thousands off the lands.

Yes always more tools lol. Part of the learning process
 
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5 shot groups at 100 yards, not great, but not terrible.

Shot Order: center, top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right.
Center was more of a warm up. Top groups were decent, then bottom groups started to open up. Fatigue? Barrel temp?

But i'm mostly seeing horizontal spread, so i'm thinking I can work on bullet seating depth to get better harmonics...

8WMvNoR.jpg


Groups at 300 really started to open up
 
Dubious, what was your rifle safe up to with H4350 and the 140 ELDM’s?

I'm not sure, Hodgdon says 41gr, Hornady 41.5gr. At 41gr with SRP I was piercing primers but the small magnum rifle primers seem to be holding up fine. I might try loading 41 to ~43gr and see how the rifle handles it
 
4350 is a reasonable powder choice.

Accuracy has to be defined in terms of distance intended to shoot.

If you are working on a 100 yard benchrest load, then by all means shoot 100 yards. If it is a hunting rifle, 100 is still a reasonable distance.

But if you are intending to shoot targets with it at 300, 500 or 800 yards, then your accuracy testing MUST be at longer range, because barrel harmonics determine long range accuracy - not a low SD.

If this rifle is for longer range shooting, then 100 yard load development is a wasted of time, a waste of components and a waste of barrel life. All are in limited supply.

To start a test, I would choose an OAL that puts the bullet about 20 thou off the rifling.

When I was making ammo for target shooters, one of them tested for me at 525 yards.

This is a test target. About 1 3/4" elevation. 20 shots.
https://imgur.com/vM2tcbE

Don't ask what the SD was. I have no idea. I was looking for accuracy.

One problem with long range testing is the wind shifts. I tend to measure group elevation and ignore the width. Shooting quickly reduces width. This 20 shot group was probably shot in less than one minute.
 
I don't have anything to add but it's a fascinating subject and discussion to read. Does anyone have any recommended reading for learning more about how to do proper load development for PRS, how to do the testing etc?
 
I'm not sure, Hodgdon says 41gr, Hornady 41.5gr. At 41gr with SRP I was piercing primers but the small magnum rifle primers seem to be holding up fine. I might try loading 41 to ~43gr and see how the rifle handles it

With my Savage, Hornady brass, H4350, 143 ELDx, I am at 41.5, and that’s near the top. I can go to 42, but it’s too hot for me. Your brass will have less case capacity than what I am using so I would not recommend trying up to 43 grains. Reminder. Look for flat primers, ejector swipe and half moons or happy faces, stiff bolt lift. Oh and my speed with a 24” barrel is 2710 ish.
 
I don't have anything to add but it's a fascinating subject and discussion to read. Does anyone have any recommended reading for learning more about how to do proper load development for PRS, how to do the testing etc?

There are hundreds and probably more posts on these topics on here. Also many other forums. Maybe jump on YouTube and watch some Eric Cortina videos
 
5 shot groups at 100 yards, not great, but not terrible.

Shot Order: center, top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right.
Center was more of a warm up. Top groups were decent, then bottom groups started to open up. Fatigue? Barrel temp?

But i'm mostly seeing horizontal spread, so i'm thinking I can work on bullet seating depth to get better harmonics...

8WMvNoR.jpg


Groups at 300 really started to open up
First group looks promising.
 
I put together a box of rounds to zero and ladder load a new scope and rifle, started at 39gr with Dominion 'D4350' short powder, the first shots I sighted in the new scope and warmed up the barrel and then shot a few groups with after all pretty much touched, I went up the ladder and it opened up... I had a friend shoot the same reloads a week later and it was the same results. I'm not chasing velocity for really long range or hunting so I haven't looked for any more accuracy nodes up there in speed yet, the paper said not too. Just my experience.

Every 140gr 6.5cm accuracy load that I read about was over all the printed reloading book max...
 
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IF all your groups are 5 shot groups? I would really look closer at the bottom right hand group. You have 3 touching and a forth very close, the fifth one is due to operator error.? The top left group is OK But I don't think it is as good as the bottom right. You never mentioned whether you are increasing the powder charge or not, If you did I missed it. Go back out with the two loads I mentioned and see if they continue to group well. IF you have no pressure signs and IF you were increasing the powder charge? I would slowly creep up a .5 gr. increments of powder above the last group charge weight until you hit your max safe pressure, the groups may actually continue to shrink for a bit longer, if so then you may? have just found your accuracy node. HOWEVER if your already at max or near max pressure with the last load? disregard the last statement. Then pick the best group and try switching primers BEFORE you do anything else.
 
Can we assume you are relatively new to shooting? The horizontal spread you see can be shooter induced. Ask me how I know... BTW - since you are an analytical type, you should consider uncertainty analysis, and in particular, determining what the controlling uncertainty is. For example, if you are a 1.5 MOA shooter, and you have a 0.5 MOA rifle, the result is 1.6 MOA. (square root of sum of squares) If you are a 0.5 MOA shooter and you have a 2 MOA rifle, the result is 2.1 MOA.
Maybe you should let one of your experienced shooter buddies have a go with your rifle, since you've got a bunch of rounds of the same spec.
 
Great comment, I wouldn't say i'm new to shooting, but certainly new to precision shooting and reloading.

I did just order a Rock BR shooting rest, so that should take out some of the user error
 
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