6.5 vs 6.8
- Thread starter hnachaj
- Start date
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Ballistically, the 6.5 and 7mm have been way better performers then the 30's. No one seems to want to produce low drag 270 bullets so the 6.8SPC will be hampered by that.
A 6mm would have resolved the 223 issues BUT....
Politically, it seems the US machine will never endorse a metric cal no matter its benefit. Otherwise, the 7mm British NATO cartridge would have dominated the playing field. Instead, we have the 308Win/7.62NATO.
So it does not surprise me that the new cartridge option ended up being a 270 - a very red, white and blue cal.
As for case design, the Grendel certainly works. But so does the SPC. I would want the largest case that would fit a bunch in the mag.
Maybe it should be a 6.5 SP/G
Jerry
A 6mm would have resolved the 223 issues BUT....
Politically, it seems the US machine will never endorse a metric cal no matter its benefit. Otherwise, the 7mm British NATO cartridge would have dominated the playing field. Instead, we have the 308Win/7.62NATO.
So it does not surprise me that the new cartridge option ended up being a 270 - a very red, white and blue cal.
As for case design, the Grendel certainly works. But so does the SPC. I would want the largest case that would fit a bunch in the mag.
Maybe it should be a 6.5 SP/G
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Silverado, not really. At the time, there were no high cap 45's AND the goal was to blast through ballistic undies of that generation.
With the battle rifle option 'forced' to the 7.62NATO, the 9mm gave back some political ground. The fact that it was the 'better' choice at the time not withstanding.
The HG seems to be given little importance in the greater scheme of things.
Today, with hi cap 45's all over the place, there is a direct move back to the 45 as a much better stopper for 'soft' targets. The only requirement the US Govt has put, no 1911 or direct decendents. why nothing on the 40 is curious?
I guess even they have figured out that modern HG designs are easier to field strip and use.
I am interested to see if there will be a full adoption of the 338 LM as a NATO rd. Lots of countries use it but it is not 'official' as far as I know.
Somehow, I don't think the US/NATO is moving away from the 223 anytime soon so the 6.5 and 6.8 debate lies in limbo except for those who want to play. Who has the budget to retool?
Jerry
With the battle rifle option 'forced' to the 7.62NATO, the 9mm gave back some political ground. The fact that it was the 'better' choice at the time not withstanding.
The HG seems to be given little importance in the greater scheme of things.
Today, with hi cap 45's all over the place, there is a direct move back to the 45 as a much better stopper for 'soft' targets. The only requirement the US Govt has put, no 1911 or direct decendents. why nothing on the 40 is curious?
I guess even they have figured out that modern HG designs are easier to field strip and use.
I am interested to see if there will be a full adoption of the 338 LM as a NATO rd. Lots of countries use it but it is not 'official' as far as I know.
Somehow, I don't think the US/NATO is moving away from the 223 anytime soon so the 6.5 and 6.8 debate lies in limbo except for those who want to play. Who has the budget to retool?
Jerry
- Location
- Vernon, BC
Jerry & others:
If I may I would like to add my thoughts and findings to this discussion. I have done extensive research on the 6.8 spc, and do own a Stag carbine in this caliber.
At its inseption, a grass roots movement right at field level, thos concerned were looking for looking for a more powerful cartrdige with better stoping power, ideally in the same foot print as an AR, but definately smaller than the AR-10.
The mission parameters for this carbine were to mid-range solution (about 300 yards), and to be to be "one shot" leathal in an anti-personal roll inside that range, as well as offer vastly superior penetration on hard targets when compared to the 5.56. Sever different cartridge variations were tried, and calibers includeing 6.5, .277, and 7mm were tested. In the end they setteled on the 30 rem as a parrent cartidge, which requried an "opening up" of the standard 5.56 bolt face, but still remained fully functional both in Semi auto, and full auto fire.
As Jerry indicates, they found that the 6.5 carried the best, and was most accurate out to ranges well beyond the "midrange" paramets. They also found, that based on the cartrige foot print and the bullet weights use, the 7mm had the best prenetrating power.
When comparing the raw data, what the testers found was that the .277 bullet carried "Almost as well" as the 6.5, and penetrated "almost as well" as the 7mm bullet. As such a compromise was struck for the purposes in question, and they settled on the .277 caliber. For use in AR carbines, they settled on bullet weight from 90 grains to 115 grains, with most of the FMJ ammunition I have come across being in the 115 range. At the end of all this testing what they found is that the 6.8 SPC had 80% the power of the 308 (7.62 Nato) with only 20% more recoil than the 223 (5.56 Nato). Best of all, all that was required to use this cartrige was a new upper, and slightly different manufactured magazines. This allowed easy switch outs, and allowed combatants to use the same muscle memory.
On a technical note, the 6.8 cartridge itself went through at least 2 variations, and early carbine barrel had a 1-10 twist. Pretty well all ammunition manufactures (including black hills and Remington - as far as I know) have settled on a the "spec 2" variaiton of that cartridge, and carbines are now produced witha 1-11 twist in a effort to better stabalize the bullest used and reduce preasure (there were early accounts and reports of over stabaliztion of bullets which resulted in poor and unexpected preformace). These last two changes or tweeks seem to have address the most critical issues, and as far as I know, is preforming very well in its current role with great success.
On a presonal note, I considered both the 6.5 grendel as well the 6.8 SPC for my "Very diffent" AR. At the end of the day I settled on the 6.8 because due over all cost, and ease of abbility to get components, mags and parts.
Just my 2 cents.
regards
AbH
If I may I would like to add my thoughts and findings to this discussion. I have done extensive research on the 6.8 spc, and do own a Stag carbine in this caliber.
At its inseption, a grass roots movement right at field level, thos concerned were looking for looking for a more powerful cartrdige with better stoping power, ideally in the same foot print as an AR, but definately smaller than the AR-10.
The mission parameters for this carbine were to mid-range solution (about 300 yards), and to be to be "one shot" leathal in an anti-personal roll inside that range, as well as offer vastly superior penetration on hard targets when compared to the 5.56. Sever different cartridge variations were tried, and calibers includeing 6.5, .277, and 7mm were tested. In the end they setteled on the 30 rem as a parrent cartidge, which requried an "opening up" of the standard 5.56 bolt face, but still remained fully functional both in Semi auto, and full auto fire.
As Jerry indicates, they found that the 6.5 carried the best, and was most accurate out to ranges well beyond the "midrange" paramets. They also found, that based on the cartrige foot print and the bullet weights use, the 7mm had the best prenetrating power.
When comparing the raw data, what the testers found was that the .277 bullet carried "Almost as well" as the 6.5, and penetrated "almost as well" as the 7mm bullet. As such a compromise was struck for the purposes in question, and they settled on the .277 caliber. For use in AR carbines, they settled on bullet weight from 90 grains to 115 grains, with most of the FMJ ammunition I have come across being in the 115 range. At the end of all this testing what they found is that the 6.8 SPC had 80% the power of the 308 (7.62 Nato) with only 20% more recoil than the 223 (5.56 Nato). Best of all, all that was required to use this cartrige was a new upper, and slightly different manufactured magazines. This allowed easy switch outs, and allowed combatants to use the same muscle memory.
On a technical note, the 6.8 cartridge itself went through at least 2 variations, and early carbine barrel had a 1-10 twist. Pretty well all ammunition manufactures (including black hills and Remington - as far as I know) have settled on a the "spec 2" variaiton of that cartridge, and carbines are now produced witha 1-11 twist in a effort to better stabalize the bullest used and reduce preasure (there were early accounts and reports of over stabaliztion of bullets which resulted in poor and unexpected preformace). These last two changes or tweeks seem to have address the most critical issues, and as far as I know, is preforming very well in its current role with great success.
On a presonal note, I considered both the 6.5 grendel as well the 6.8 SPC for my "Very diffent" AR. At the end of the day I settled on the 6.8 because due over all cost, and ease of abbility to get components, mags and parts.
Just my 2 cents.
regards
AbH
- Location
- Vernon, BC
Koalorka:
I just saw your comments my friend, with regards to the 6.5 grendel, I think you will find its creator is stiffling its growth, and I think you will find it will never enter the mainstream, and will be kept alive by those who know what its capable of. Do not get me wrong, I think its a great cartridge and I belive its original desing was to be target cartrige, capable of being used in the AR platform, delivering amazing accuracy results.
On the other hand, I think the 6.8 SPC will become mainstream, and very poplular when it does. Its making all the right steps (like being adopted and produced by a major and minor ammo manufacturers), and belive it or not, contiues to grow in poplulatrity and respect by those who are using it. In the US, where one can hunt with AR's, its actually becoming a some what popular sporting cartridge, and capable of very fine accuracy out of a bolt action rifle as well. However in the end, only time will tell.
Just my 2 cents, and YMMV
regards
AbH
No .50 BMG for "if you really, really need more"?
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
