6.5x55 1896 mauser ?

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dimeN

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Hi
i just got a nice 1896 swede mauser and i'm wondering about load data.. so far i've read all over the place that some people don't care and others preach that you have to use reduced loads... but they give no data ??

also i see this action put on larger calibers with more pressure... so what the heck do you believe...(obviously the action can live through it) can i go buy a box of winchester ammo and fire it ? i'd almost prefer to do that cause the used brass or new brass is just about the same price as a box of fully loaded ammo..

also, I will say this... these guns were well made ! I think i'd like to get more !!!!!

any help would be appreciated ... thanks
 
Yeah you can fire factory ammo, but it's downloaded due to the weaker actions of the Krags. Swedish Mausers were proofed to higher pressures so you should be fine if you reload or buy factory. Just make sure you determine the load is for your mauser and not hot rodded for modern rifles.
 
I recently got one, with the long barrel and peep sights. Unbelievably accurate, able to consistently knock down the rams at 500ish yds; off the bench though.

I was using 140gr berger boattails (can't remember the catalog number) and 44gr RL-22. No outward signs of over pressure, but I don't really trust the visual indications, cant remember what the velocities were but I did chrony the first series from 40gr up to 45 gr. Seated the bullet out as far as possible and still couldn't touch the lands.

I've got the strain gauge installed but didn't get a chance to capture the pressure trace numbers. When I do, I'll post them here.
 
the more i check it out...the more i like it.. even though that barrel is Loooong

i'll puts some pic's up.. and i can't see just owning only one..
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the crown was mint.. even the blue was continuous all around it.. i don't know what to say...i've never seen an old military rifle with a crown that nice.. ... total opposite of the old garand i usta own.. the GI that used it musta hammered tent pegs in with the muzzle ... it was painful to look at



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/dimenickel/M1896/DSC06357.jpg
 
stamp on reciever

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oh it has a tiny crack on side of stock... which ain't much... I know exactly how to deal with it

well... i had hoped it would be in rougher shape so i could give the stock a full resto ...and put a scope on it... but dang it... i just can't do it... its too damn sweet ... it'll stay the way it is.... maybe i'll get the original rear sight and front but that'll be it... and use it the way it is...

Hey JD... thats some good info thanks
 
Berger 140gr Match grade Target BT.
Berger load data for RL-22 (from quickload) 43.5gr = 2544 ft/s, 46.6gr = 2733 ft/s.

My field data for RL-22 & 140gr Bergers , 40gr = 2265 ft/s, 46gr = 2538 ft/s; pretty much all intermediate loads fall on a straight line between the end points. Rifle was M1896 CG, mfgr date is 1903. Bore looks good but I've not slugged it so not sure how tight it is for sure.

Berger 85gr Target FB, using Varget. 40gr = 2813ft/s, 44gr = 3200ft/s.

I backed off on the load for the 140gr bullets to 44gr as I didn't get a chance to capture the pressures and not sure how much I was pushing the envelope with the max load, I'd rather be safe than sorry with this older gun.
 
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your Swede

Of course it is accurate. It is one of 18,000 Husqvarna m96 rifles made for the FSR, in 1944. The FSR is the Swedish Volunteer Shooters Association. It has Soderin rear diopter sights on it, and do not worry about the supposed stock disk missing --it never was there. Also, Husqvarna held the barrel tolerances to 6.49-6.50 millimeters in these rifles.

These rifles were made for Civilian target shooters, and were not part of a Military issue. They were sold to their Swedish owners with the understanding that the rifle "could not be significantly harmed," or in other words, sporterized or Bubbadized. The addition of the Diopter sight was one approval, and a detachable pistol grip was another. The drilling of some small holes in the back of the receiver bridge was not considered harmful.

These rifles were made to Swedish Military specifications, and in case of an emergency, the government could buy them back. The two above modifications could easily be removed, and the Government had 18,000 rifles available at no cost to themselves, unless War was declared. The government also loaned some of these rifles to Gun and Shooting Clubs.

I would not worry about the crown of the barrel, as long as it shoots well. A good, well tuned m96 rifle will keep up with a CG-63 rifle on the range.

The sights should go up to 600 meters, as this is what the Swedes use for their "field shooting" matches. The domed range ring on top can be replaced by other range rings. There are three of them, for different types of ammunition, and are colour coded --white, yellow, and red----for 160 grain, 139 grain, and Norma Match ammo. If you reload, you might have to zero the rear sight, and a special tool is needed to do this, but they are available on E-Bay.
 
Norway and Sweden adopted the same cartridge at the same performance because the world was getting more than a bit shaky for their old black-powder tube-magazine repeaters and single-shots to handle.... and they thought that they might have to form a common defence against an aggressor. It took 46 years, but it happened, more or less: Norway was invaded in 1940 and Sweden sort-of-but-not-quite.

Barnes in COTW6 gives Mil Spec performance with the 1894 loading as:
156 grain RNFMJ @ 2395 ft/sec for 1993 ft/lbs ME.
You can pretty much duplicate this with 41 grains of 4350.

For the 1941 HV loading, Barnes gives:
139-grain FMJBT@ 2625 ft/sec for 2126 ft/lbs ME
which can be duplicated with 42 or 43 grains of 4350.

These are MilSpec loads: Norma commercial hunting ammo is MUCH hotter, although the Swedish landscape doesn't appear to be littered with the shattered remains of Model 1896s (and their owners) to any great degree.

Hope this helps.
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Thank you, this post was much more than i expected ! the history of the rifle is fantastic .... now being a civ gun with peeps makes sense
- load data is exactly what i needed to hear.. right on !

i think it'll be just perfect, i'm surprised the 6.5 didn't take off over here and be very popular ?

thought i was going to put a patch through it just to make sure the bore was clean... and i find myself in a spot... by jeez, i don't have a cleaning rod long enough :eek:

have to reread this post, there just too much good info ! thanks
 
As smellie said, the Norma ammo IS full pressure :) , in fact too hot for my Ljungman SA. The extractor tear's chunks from the rim. :eek:
In the model 94/96/38 rifles it is also a little too intense for my liking, so my handloads are maxed at a level that shows noticably less pressure.

Measuring the case head expansion before and after firing works for me. One half of one thousanth of an inch is the max. arbitrary limit that has worked well in my rifles. My brass is all Lapua. The CHE method assumes using just one brand of brass, for the different brands will vary quite a bit in response to the same pressure.

Slugging your bore is a good move. The military barrels tend to be somewhat loose, it seems. The majority that I've measured are around .266". The tightest, an 1899 Oberndorf went .2646", the loosest, a well shot 1908 CG at .267". Measuring the six new arsenal M38 barrels bought from Tradeex, showed bores from .2655" to .266".

Just a theory, and FWIW, .... these Swedes of mine all shoot their best with warmish loads, there is often a point during load work up where .2 or .3 grain charge increase will dramatically shrink the groups. Perhaps it's an accuracy 'node', but some winter experimenting revealed an interesting insight as to why the hotter loads work best.
Fired bullets recovered unmarred from a 300 yard distant snowbank tell the tale.
The starting load shot 1.2 moa and showed no contact of the bullet's shank to the bore grooves.
The max. load went .4 moa and revealed a band, 1 or 2 mm wide, where the bullet base 'bumped up' to full contact.

OP is asking what prudent max. is in a mil. Swede. To each their own, but this is where I'm at, .... approach from well below in small increments as YMMV.

140gr Hornady Amax
48gr R22
Lapua brass
Fed 215M primer(winter)
CCI br2(summer)
3.2" OAL.(.025" jump)
collet sized to 2 thou. neck tension
seated to 2 thou. runout or less
2675fps avg. velocity with 25fps ES

This load often goes into 3/4" at 200 from bipod/bag.
The br2's get iffy at -15C or colder.
The R22 starts to show temp. sensetivety at 25C, and is reduced 1/2gr. in hot weather.

Using H4350 with all else the same as ^, 44.5 grains is as hot as I'll go, in some rifles that may be a bit over the top.

Damn straight I love them Swedes.:D
 
i'll stay clear of the hot norma ammo ... basically i needed to know a safe margin which i can work up a safe/accurate load ... and you guy's came through ... super !!!

think i've been in and out of the safe about 5x today... oiling it and checking it out ...

Viking: you've got a real shooter there.. and at 200 ... these old rifles are real gems !
 
for my swedish mauser i have done the same thing vviking has done when working up loads ...... i use norma ammo and get a feel for how much pressure it is producing , then when working up a load , i go up to the point that it feels similar to the norma stuff then back off about a grain . ( keep in mind that this is still under the max load listed in many manuals )

the norma ammo makes my bolt very slightly sticky .

i don't think the norma stuff is unsafe .... it is just loaded hotter than the north american stuff .

i could be wrong about this ( and if i am please share what you know ) but it is my understanding that the '96 action doesn't just " explode " without warning if you go 10 psi over max pressure . ( lots of these rifles have been rebarreled to 308 win , which produces much higher pressures than 6.5x55 )

but

instead the bolt starts to set back into the action causing headspacing problems .... then if that isn't fixed the shooter could encounter seperation of the case head when firing .
and since the 96 action doesn't handle gases as well as the '98 action this is what will cause the shooter more grief than anything else .
 
Bolt setback can be a REAL disaster.

I was working in a shop in Brandon when an absolutely lovely 1949 FN COMMERCIAL Mauser came in for repair. The critter had been rebarreled to .264 WinMag and shot with loads hot enough to burn the rifling out of the throat. The problem was that it was tearing case-heads loose and THEN refusing to extract. On thorough investigation, we found that the bolt locking lugs had hammered their way BACKWARDS into the receiver ring itself. On cocking, the rifle was pushing the fired case (which had been stretched mercilessly because of terribly-excess headspace) back into the chamber and THEN trying to haul it out.

The stock was cracked at the recoil lugs and splintered pretty badly, so we trashed that.

The barrel was burnt-out completely, so we trashed that, too.

The bolt-lugs were hammered forward, so we trashed the bolt, saved the firing-pin, extractor, bolt plug and mainspring.

The receiver was wrecked completely, so we trashed that.

We DID save the Timney trigger, though. Nothing else was SAFE to re-use.

And that was the end of one of the finest commercial Mausers ever built.

Nice thing is that almost any rifle will shoot its absolute best at pressures well BELOW those of factory ammo. This appears to go double for Swede Mausers.

Have fun!.
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Yeah burnt_servo, what you said.

I've seen M94 actions built into .270 Winchester and 6.5X284. .... .270 cranks up 53,000 cup or thereabouts in factory loads, if memory serves. No idea how they fared long term, haven't heard of any blow-ups neither.

And no, would not want to be behind a Swede if a case ever let go. Some fellows will open up the bolt vent holes to improve venting. I haven't done that, but do install an aftermarket 98 style flanged bolt sleeve to deflect gasses coming down the bolt raceway on my bubba'd sporters that get loaded warm.

That said, one of my scoped M94's(1917CG) has shot through two barrels over the past three decades, with the previously posted loads or similar. Headspace has been monitered with the precision mic and has not changed. Not suggesting it couldn't happen, just that the current max. load seems within the actions long term capabilities to tolerate.

:cheers:
 
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