6 ft 3 in & 15 1/2 lbs ........... What do I have here??

jpc

jpc

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
692   0   0
Location
SUNNY SOUTHERN ONTARIO
Barrel is approx 7 bore and 57 1/2" long
Overall length of gun is 75" and weighs in at 15 1/2 pounds
Only markings are the proof marks pictured.
She is quite something to hold :)
Any ideas ??

take care and thank you

jpc

IMG_6994.jpg
[/URL]

IMG_6995.jpg
[/URL]

IMG_6993.jpg
[/URL]

IMG_6996.jpg
[/URL]

IMG_6991.jpg
[/URL]
 
Last edited:
In rural Newfoundland, that would be called a "Seven-eighths Gun" and would have been used birding until relatively-recent years.

Something that size would also have been useful on Potheads (Pilot Whales, not Marijuana-smokers!) should a pod run in close to land.

The Lock appears a conversion from a Short Land Musket (Second model Brown Bess).

The Wedding Band at the Breech is a bit unusual; most of these had an Octagonal barrel which changed to 16 sides, THEN the Wedding Band, THEN a tapered round barrel to the Muzzle, total length usually 46 inches. THIS one is OLDER, likely an 1820s conversion from parts surplus after the Napoleonic Wars into a cheap gun for Colonial trade. In Newfoundland this would have been a 6-dollar gun, but the dollars would have been Spanish Milled Dollars: pieces-of-eight.

The Hammer appears to have been changed-out on this gun. As made, they generally were surprisingly well-fitted. Time, oxygen and salt-water do take their toll.

BTW, the HOLE through the stock is for a "Punt-line". A heavy line was run through the hole and seized back upon itself, spliced strongly and the other end fixed securely to something solid in the boat. If the boat capsized or, more likely, if you dropped the gun from sheer recoil, you could recover that expensive gun.

Guns such as this commonly were shot with an OUNCE of powder and a quarter-pound to a half-pound of shot! In local language a "shot of ducks" is about 30 birds: the number which you should be able to take with a single shot from this monster.

PLEASE don't ask me to hang onto one while it is fired!

Most of these were very cheap London guns, but a lot also were made in Birmingham. Two hundred years of salt-water will play Hob with proof-marks.

A MARVELLOUS old chunk of pure Canadian History!

Hope this helps.
 
I think it is some kind of made in India gun. The lock looks too flat for a Bess lock and it also does not fit the lock recess very well suggesting to me that it may be a replacement

cheers mooncoon
 
BSA Jack said:
I like it!! No matter where it came from. You could kill a tiger or a whole slough of ducks with one shot:rockOn:
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking. The hole ahead of the lock might be a mounting spot for a pivot. The bore might be smaller than normal, but maybe it was used as a small punt gun.
 
Out East, a LOT of these old guns were restocked locally. Some of the workmanship was excellent.

When I moved to Fogo Island in 1976, people were still hunting with these things. I own a gun quite similar to this one except that my lock is an India Pattern lock. My gun can be dated POSITIVELY no later than 1825 by census data; the original owner, a somewhat-famous wracker and part-time Pirate, carved his name and address into the Butt, but had moved by the time the 1825 Census was taken.

These were English guns, most definitely. Later models, such as my very-nice 11-bore Fowler on a soft-iron Pattern 1853 lock, were sold in Newfoundland as late as the beginning of the Great War.

They were advertised on the front page of the old TWILLINGATE SUN at least until 1912.

THIS gun is much older, although not as old as the ENGLISH-LOCKS WITH DOGS I saw in couple of places.

I had neighbours both in Seldom-Come-By and in Joe Batt's Arm who still were survival-hunting with these monsters, so I did get to see and handle a fair number of them.

What is absolutely terrifying is an "Inch Bore Gun": a 4 or even a 2 to similar specs. They were, and are, quite rare.
 
Worked with a chap in the '60s, we discussed the "three quarters", and the "seven eighths" guns that were still in use in the outport he was from. A load for the 7/8 guns was a fired 12ga shell of powder, a wad of oakum, the same 12ga shell of shot, and more oakum.
Most of the guns I've seen have a hole through the butt, through which was worked a line to be snubbed on the gunwale.
Smellie - then you were there, were these guns still being used to fire salutes at weddings?
 
Weddings?

Oh, yes. The South Side of Joe Batt's Arm would be a solid wall of smoke as the new couple drove slowly from the Church to the Point and back.

New Year's Eve everyone went outside at a few minutes before Midnight and waited for the stroke. At the announcement, there would be a streak of flame from Job's Cove (wehre I was) all the way along the road to the end of Embree and back again, a mile each way. Kept it up for 5 or 10 minutes, too. I only had one real GUN (non-muzzleloaders being not really GUNS, you understand) at that time, but it still cost me a mort of good powder!

And nobody ever got hurt.

If you tried that today, out here, you would spend the next 5 years trying to talk your way out of Stony Mountain!

One thing I did note was that many of these very old customs seemed to be better-kept in the Roman Catholic communities. Tilting Harbour and the South Side of Joe Batt's Arm (geographically it was North-East, but was South because of religion: Catholics ALWAYS live on the South Side), both solid Roman Catholic, seemed to preserve some of these traditions better.
 
Likely it was being shot up until shortly before it emigrated to Ontario.

A good clean-up is definitely warranted for something such as this.

Many of the Locks were maker-marked although some were not. The English Locks With Dogs I mentioned previously are seen marked CONWAY in stamped Italics and WOODCOCK in small caps in the shape of an S; there could be others but such guns are scarce and likely a century older than this one.. THIS one appears to have markings directly under the Bolster and quite possibly at the rear end of the Plate. Cleaning the gun very carefully should reveal any markings, then the research may begin.

I do agree with MOONCOON regarding the lock-plate, although it likely is a Commercial plate which was made to the same specification as the plate for the Short Land Musket. Gunmakers used to use these guns for teaching their Apprentices before letting them go on to make muskets for the Military.... which paid better.

Muzzleloaders in rural Newfoundland were classed locally by bore diameter.

Smallest was the Five-eighths Gun: generally a .58 military musket. They were regarded as pretty much useless because they "threw" their shot: big O-shaped pattern due to the rifling.
Next was the Slack Three-quarter: generally a .69" Musket, sometimes a 12 but not a heavy gun
Next was the Three-quarter Gun: this would be a 12 in theory but generally was an 11 or a 10, sometimes as large as a 9
Next was the Seven-eighths Gun, which is what this one is: an 8, 7 or a 6
Next would be the awesome Inch Bore Gun: 5, 4, 3 or even a 2-bore: legally, artillery!

Sometimes a gun would be called a "Slack Seven-eighths" or a "Slack Inch Bore", in each case the word "slack" indicating "almost". The problem, of course, was that there were many more GAUGES than there were EIGHTHS.

Any of these old guns are great fun to fire, especially if you load them according to the Proof Tables from the London Proof House. A neighbour once showed me how to make up a "proper" load for a Three-quarter Gun. I was utterly appalled because what he considered to be a NORMAL load was DOUBLE THE PROOF LOAD...... and he had been firing his Grandfather's 130-year-old gun loaded like that for the previous 30 years....... and still it held together!

Proper Service load for a 7 should be about 154 grains of powder with 2-1/32 ounces of shot. If there is nothing wrong with the barrel, this old gun should be good to go with this load for another century. You CAN, of course, fire a lesser load if you like; our back-yards generally are not infested too badly with Tyrannosaurs - which this old girl would flatten-out in a trice.

Careful cleaning, followed by careful inspection, are required to determine the soundness of any old gun such as this. Lubrication of the internals of the Lock will, of course, be required. Likely, also, the wood would appreciate a strengthening "drink" of Raw Linseed Oil, topped off with Boiled Linseed Oil to re-seal the surface after so many drying years. And, likely, the old girl will put on some weight in the process: a stock that size will soak up a LOT of oil!

Most important of all: have fun while you are guarding this piece of our History!
 
Needs a pistol grip, bayonet, and a bipod....maybe a good set of optics and a coat of flat black paint.......

*JUST KIDDING*
I'm wondering how much harder to hold this gun would be over my fathers Win hi-wall. He has an exceptionally heavy barrel on it...about 15lbs....but the gun is much shorter.

It was mentioned that this gun could be used on pot head whales...would that be a 7/8"round ball?......pot shot? ;)
 
smellie said:
Weddings?

Oh, yes. The South Side of Joe Batt's Arm would be a solid wall of smoke as the new couple drove slowly from the Church to the Point and back.

New Year's Eve everyone went outside at a few minutes before Midnight and waited for the stroke. At the announcement, there would be a streak of flame from Job's Cove (wehre I was) all the way along the road to the end of Embree and back again, a mile each way. Kept it up for 5 or 10 minutes, too. I only had one real GUN (non-muzzleloaders being not really GUNS, you understand) at that time, but it still cost me a mort of good powder!

And nobody ever got hurt.

If you tried that today, out here, you would spend the next 5 years trying to talk your way out of Stony Mountain!

One thing I did note was that many of these very old customs seemed to be better-kept in the Roman Catholic communities. Tilting Harbour and the South Side of Joe Batt's Arm (geographically it was North-East, but was South because of religion: Catholics ALWAYS live on the South Side), both solid Roman Catholic, seemed to preserve some of these traditions better.
Click to expand...

The reenactment group I belong to did 2 volleys right outside a church in Thornhill while we were marching down public streets "north of Moronto" in 2011, zero casulties.

Now this smoothbore is just AMAZING, its like the long LONG land. Amazing find!

A bit of cleaning,mending, some linseed oil a new nipple and maybe a new hammer?? I would definately love to see how she patterns at 60 yards!
 
Last edited:
Thank you Smellie! That was interesting as hell.

Is there anything you don't know??? :)

BTW, I wonder how people cleaned these things and how sound the barrels would be?
 
smellie said:
In rural Newfoundland, that would be called a "Seven-eighths Gun" and would have been used birding until relatively-recent years.

Something that size would also have been useful on Potheads (Pilot Whales, not Marijuana-smokers!) should a pod run in close to land.

The Lock appears a conversion from a Short Land Musket (Second model Brown Bess).

The Wedding Band at the Breech is a bit unusual; most of these had an Octagonal barrel which changed to 16 sides, THEN the Wedding Band, THEN a tapered round barrel to the Muzzle, total length usually 46 inches. THIS one is OLDER, likely an 1820s conversion from parts surplus after the Napoleonic Wars into a cheap gun for Colonial trade. In Newfoundland this would have been a 6-dollar gun, but the dollars would have been Spanish Milled Dollars: pieces-of-eight.

The Hammer appears to have been changed-out on this gun. As made, they generally were surprisingly well-fitted. Time, oxygen and salt-water do take their toll.

BTW, the HOLE through the stock is for a "Punt-line". A heavy line was run through the hole and seized back upon itself, spliced strongly and the other end fixed securely to something solid in the boat. If the boat capsized or, more likely, if you dropped the gun from sheer recoil, you could recover that expensive gun.

Guns such as this commonly were shot with an OUNCE of powder and a quarter-pound to a half-pound of shot! In local language a "shot of ducks" is about 30 birds: the number which you should be able to take with a single shot from this monster.

PLEASE don't ask me to hang onto one while it is fired!

Most of these were very cheap London guns, but a lot also were made in Birmingham. Two hundred years of salt-water will play Hob with proof-marks.

A MARVELLOUS old chunk of pure Canadian History!

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

oh I dont know. I think this old punt gun would do just fine on a group of marijuana smokers, too....;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom