6 Inch Group at 100 Yards - HELP!!!

R

Rubber Ducky

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Hi Guys,

I was wondering if anybody here might be able to help me. I have a Remington Sendero in .270Win and for some reason I can't seem to get the group down to less than 6 inches. The ammunition I was using was Winchester Accubonds in 140 Grains with the black Lubalox coating.

If anybody could help me I would greatly appreciate it.

I recently had the rifle rebedded, the scope repaired and remounted and the trigger lightened to 3.5 lbs. On the table I had a stand with sandbag under the forestock and a sandbag under the butt. The rifle was about as steady as I could get it.

Today was my first day out on the range after getting the rifle back from the gunsmith. I fired three rounds at 100 yards hoping to at least hit the paper and of course I did not. Next I placed a target at 50 yards, and after about 10 rounds I had it hitting the centreline but about 6 inches low. After a correction, I was able to put 3 bullets into a one inch circle at 50 yards.

Elated I next tried out the target at 100 yards and what started as a promising round rapidly deteriorated first from a four inch group to one over six inches.

I did notice that the barrel was now quite hot, in fact a bit too hot to the touch. Since I was running low on Ammunition, I thought I'd just see what the group at 200 yards looked like. I normally set my rifle to a 200 yard zero. Next came the strangest group I ever saw, three bullets all at exactly 3.5 inches high at 200 but spread out in about a four inch group.

I make the adjustments to the scope, but this time I let the barrel cool a bit and fire another 5 rounds. The first two were dead centre and within a half inch of each other. The third was wide by about 5 inches and it only got worse from there on in.

What I did notice was that I was firing fairly quickly. I do the breathing and squeeze routing, but I may be flinching. I also noticed that the barrel would get quite hot.

Questions: How quickly do you shoot? and if it is flinching, how do I prevent it? and how long should I take between shots. Is there anything else I should be looking at, like different ammo?

Sorry for the long song and dance but any help at all would be appreciated.

Thanks,
RD
 
You are burning up your barrel. No rifle is going to want to shoot up to it's potential with a too hot to touch barrel.

Slow the hell down.

Assuming your rifle is al put together correctly (and if it ust came back form a competent gunsmith, it should be) then the probem is either you, your rest, or the conditions.

Make your rest more solid. Idealy, you should be able to have your rifle sit there, with your scope on target, without you needing to hold it tighty.

The condidtions you can't change, but you can avid shooting in high wind. It's gotta be pretty gsusty to throw a 270 off much at 100 yards, though.

So it's probaby what you are doing. You are shooting too fast and proabbly flinching, too.

Relax, shoot...wait a minute between shots. If you are heating up your barrel liek that...you are gonna screw yourself.
 
Burning Up the Barrel

Thanks Gatehouse,

I'll go out again next weekend and I'll slow it down. I'm not one to make excuses, but as ex-Canadian Army I was used to rapid fire sessions with the old FNC1 (and occasionally with the C2) and I didn't think that a sporting barrel would be much different than one on a combat rifle, but then again if we could shoot a 1 foot circle at 100 yards we were considered marksmen. :confused: Most of the guys in my platoon were lucky to shoot into the second ring let alone the bulls eye, but then maybe our company commander knew that as we did practice a lot of bayonet techniques.

Since I paid a good deal of money for what I thought was a good rifle the last thing I want is to destroy the barrel. I knew that the internal ballistics of a hot barrel are different than for a cold barrel but for the life of me I didn't think that it would have that much effect let alone burn out the barrel. I will follow your advice and slow it down.

I go to a professional gunsmith who makes tactical rifles for a living, so I don't think he's the problem.

Thanks,
RD
 
Getting all your shots in a one foot circle at 100 yds in our military gives you marksman status........I guess at "all in 6 inches at 100 yds" is sniper material......

Surely you jest..........looking forward to the boys in the military confirming your beliefs.......


hs4570.........your mileage may vary
 
I fire three shots one after the other then let the barrel cool.If you shoot until the barrel is too hot to hold,the throat in that barrel will be eroded much quicker than normal.
 
With a new rifle I'm trying to sight-in, I shoot 3 shots, then let the barrel cool completely, 15 - 20 min even. Then shoot another group, cool completely, then adjust the scope accordingly. If you try to dial a scope in with a hot barrel, when it cools it may be way off.
 
Make sure your barrel is clean as well as cool when you target shoot. Get a good copper remover and give it a good cleaning.

I have a 220 Swift that will hold around an inch for about 25-30 rounds and after that she really loosens up to 4 inch groups due to the copper fouling. After I clean it out with a good copper remover (Wipe-Out) Im back to MOA shooting.

Also take a good look at your crown, maybe you damaged it and need it recrowned.

Cheers!!
 
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I usually wait 1-2 min between shots IF I'm looking for groups. I also take LOTS of ammo and shoot 10 rounds before adjusting anything. That way I know its the scope and not me! Maybe your making fine adjustments to quick?
 
The others have pretty much covered what I would have said.

The only thing I would add is, if you have another scope to try that you have confidence in, swape out the scope on your rifle for that one.
 
hs4570 said:
Getting all your shots in a one foot circle at 100 yds in our military gives you marksman status........I guess at "all in 6 inches at 100 yds" is sniper material......

Surely you jest..........looking forward to the boys in the military confirming your beliefs.......
Click to expand...

Hi HS4570,

Actually I am jesting :D The best of us could fire a two inch group with the FN at 100 yards. It was in the prone position using a sling only and sighting was done with iron sights. For the rest of us, it was the 12" circle at 100 yards. :) Of course my stretch in Canada's Armed Forces occured about 35 years ago, and big game hunting for me started about 4 years ago.

Seriously guys, thanks for the information. I know it sounds stupid but I did not know any of this. I just assumed that since I knew how to shoot in the Army, I would be able to shoot now.

Cheers,
RD
 
I'd suggest also trying a different type of ammo. Your rifle just may not like it, and the more complicated the construction of the bullet, the more likely something will go wrong.
I don't know what accubond lubalox is. Perhaps try a more conventional bullet from a different maker and see what happens.

I had a 308 rifle that was consistently grouping 6"-8" at 100 yards with 180gr Winchester silvertips, then I switched to Federal Classic 150gr and consistently got 2" groups.
 
Copper Fouling Question

scott_r said:
Make sure your barrel is clean as well as cool when you target shoot. Get a good copper remover and give it a good cleaning.

I have a 220 Swift that will hold around an inch for about 25-30 rounds and after that she really loosens up to 4 inch groups due to the copper fouling. After I clean it out with a good copper remover (Wipe-Out) Im back to MOA shooting.

Also take a good look at your crown, maybe you damaged it and need it recrowned.

Cheers!!
Click to expand...

Hi Scott_R,

I use Butch's Bore Shine. What I do is use a bronze core brush dipped in Bore Shine, and I give it a stroke (back and forth) for every round I fired. I then use cotton patches soaked with Bore Shine and (using a bore guide) push it through from the receiver end. I never go the other way with a patch. I repeat the brushing followed by 7 or 8 patches until there is only the slightest hint of pale blue on the patch. I usually do about 3 or 4 cycles of brush/patch before I get to the very pale blue colour. I understand that the brass jag will cause some of the residual bluish colouring. I finish up with a few dry patches followed by some oiled patches to preserve the barrel. Before firing I usually pull a bore snake through the barrel to get the oil out.

I hate to ask stupid questions but I'm at the point where I'm questioning everything and want to make sure that at least my cleaning regime is correct.

When you clean the copper fouling out of your rifle, do you have any hint of blue at all on the solvent soaked patch? I'm wondering if I'm stopping to early?

Thanks,
RD

The gunsmith said that there was no damage to the Crown.
 
I think that scott_r meant to clean the bore during your sighting in procedure. I usually fire about 6-7 shots in my 7mmRM and then clean the bore.

For sighting in or working up a load, I usually fire a fouling shot after cleaning, then start my groups. Don't use your first shot after cleaning the bore as an indication of where your scope is, unless you plan on cleaning between every shot, haha.

And like everyone one else has said, let the barrel cool down some.
 
defintly keep the bore clean and it seems you have everything covered like its been said slow down. check all your screws mounts even your rest.
shoot , eject, wait 30 seconds, load, wait another 30 seconds, fire, repeat.
also if your using a copper remover avoid using a bronze brush switch to a nylon brush or just use patches as the copper remover eats the bronze brushes.
also if you shoot with someone else get them to randomly load a snap cap somewhere in your mag but so you dont know where it is and have them watch your reaction when you come to that. it will help to find if your flinching and if, how bad you are
 
OK, I'll chime in on this one. First 3 shot groups tell you nothing!!! You require a minimum of 5 rounds to see if you have a problem. Barrels will heat up after only 3 rounds but that should not be hot enough to cause the harmonic vibrations to change drastically, that is why I recommend 5 rounds. 5 heats it up enough to let you see if it is the barrel or perhaps the bedding. The barrel heating might not be your problem. Double check not only your Scope screws, bases rings, ect... but your action screws. As your smith bedded your rifle he set the torque on the action screws. Check with him and see how tight they are supposed to be. Simetimes it takes a few rounds to "Seat" the action after bedding, this is not unusual at all. Also try bullets without a coating.

Scott
Dycor Special Services
 
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