60 era martini ammo 14$$ a box ..in the usa

BTW, guys, if you do run into some of this stuff, DO take a look at the patches on the bullets.

WHITE patch indicates BLACK POWDER.

ORANGE patch indicates Smokeless.

The Black Powder shells had an inside compressed-paper liner because they were drawn-brass cases and thus much thinner than the old-time wrapped Boxer cases. The compressed-paper liner simply reduced the charge chamber (now oversize because of the thinner walls) to the correct size. They had nothing to do at all with being any kind of over-powder wad. I bought a batch of fresh Snider brass from George Kynoch/ICI in 1966..... and IT had compressed-paper liners, too! I DO know what I'm talking about sometimes, even if I don't have all the latest manuals.

BTW, you'll never find a powder called IMR-4759. It is a Sporting Rifle powder: SR-4759. IMR in front of a powder stands for Improved Military Rifle.
 
Just in case anybody might be interested, there happens already to BE a formula for using smokeless powder in Black-powder ammunition.

It is very simple:

You use SR-4759 powder at a charge level of 38 percent of your Blackpowder charge.

You load .50-100 with 38 grains, you load .40-50 Sharps with 19 grains.... like that.

This secret formula has been known for nearly a century now and used to be printed in the loading manuals. Guess it must be too simple for modern folks, but it worked just fine.
 
Just in case anybody might be interested, there happens already to BE a formula for using smokeless powder in Black-powder ammunition.

It is very simple:

You use SR-4759 powder at a charge level of 38 percent of your Blackpowder charge.

You load .50-100 with 38 grains, you load .40-50 Sharps with 19 grains.... like that.

This secret formula has been known for nearly a century now and used to be printed in the loading manuals. Guess it must be too simple for modern folks, but it worked just fine.

Well, I'll be damned... thanks for posting this! I guess I will stock up on some IMR-4759 when I manage to find any. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's very unfortunate how much precious information like this gets forgotten over time. I'm fairly new to reloading, but I'll definitely keep that formula in mind from now on! (beats researching odd loads). However, does that also take into account different case spaces (on various catridges) vs pressures? Or does wadding take care of that issue?

Thanks!

:)
 
SR-4759 is the sole survivor of a group of powders which date from the very earliest times of smokeless powders. These were the Bulk powders, which could be loaded bulk-for-bulk with Black and gave you similar ballistic performance. SR-4759 has gone into and out of production so many times since I started handloading that I can't even keep count of them. It always goes out of production because it is 'obsolete'.... and it is always brought back because it is necessary. A point to be aware of: SR-4759 is NOT a Bulk Powder PER SE.... but it is awfully close. There are NO true Bulk powders remaining

You will note that I refer to it as SR-4759 rather than as IMR-###X. IMR powders were designed originally as progressive powders for military use. The powder we are talking about it a Sporting Rifle (SR) powder and it was designed for home-rolling ammo for your Black Powder rifles with Smokeless Powder.... without wrecking the original rifles. Black Powder cartridges commonly operate no higher than 15,000 psi and very often a lot lower than that. The IMR powders are designed to produce the far-higher pressures demanded by modern military and MODERN sporting rifles: pressures up 'way past 60,000 PSI. With the super-bulky Sporting Rifle (SR) powders, you can't get enough into the case (leaving room for the bullet) to destroy your rifle too seriously, although you CAN overload with it, just the same as any other powder. It just isn't as critical when you start talking about tenths of grains. It is very forgiving and it has to be: many of the old-timers who originally used these powders didn't even own scales. If their 25-cent powder/shot measure didn't give the exact amount they wanted, they would beg a fired shell from a neighbour or something and use that for a measure: straight across for a standard load, heaped for a heavy load... and the powder all came out of the same tin because "that was the tin that the hardware had an' it costed dang nigh a dollar an' they ain't no-one a big enough fool t'waste money on TWO kinds of powder for ONE gun so that's the kind she uses!". Very practical, but it didn't ALWAYS work, so some slack had to be designed in just so nobody blew themself up too badly.

After Black powder had become an academic topic of conversation, many of the old-time Black Powder cartridges remained in production as Smokeless rounds. This included the .41 Swiss, .45-70, .45-90, .38-40, .32-20, .44-40, .32-40, .38-55, .50-110 and a whole yardfull of others. Thirty-two rimfire, .25RF, ,25 Stevens, .38 RF, .44 Henry, .43 Mauser and a host of others (including .303 British, to my dismay) began their careers as Blackpowder rounds and made the transition to smokeless. The smokeless loads were very much appreciated by everyone for a whole raft of reasons: less cleaning to do, don't have to clean your gun right now, cartridge cases don't corrode to nothing, cartridges don't corrode from the inside when not fired.... things like that. It is useful stuff. And so everybody wanted to use it. SR-4759 was just one of the most useful of this class of propellants and has lasted the longest. It is a very bulky powder and used to be sold half a pound in a one-pound-size tin. I see that the most recent lots are being sold in plastic jugs and it seems to be denser than the old stuff, but I have to actually break down and spend money for a tub of the new stuff and weigh it against what I still have from the 1960s, to make certain. I will do this and I WILL post the results here.

The one really good thing about it is that this 38%-by-weight formula will hold, just so long as you keep to it. It should give you VERY close to identical performance AND pressure to the original Black Powder loading but without the muss, fuss and corrosion.

As to burning speed, it is quicker than IMR-4198: no question about that. My Remington .50-70 digests SR-4759 very well, whereas it simply lines the bore with half-burnt IMR-4198 and gives me a squib shot no matter HOW it is wadded. Best way to use the SR-4759, I have found, is wadded lightly, just to prevent it from rattling around in the case, but you usually don't have even to do this: the great bulk of the powder, combined with the lesser internal capacity of modern casings, gives pretty consistent ignition 'as-is'.

It's pretty good stuff.

You did a terrific amount of work to derive your formula for using smokeless in Black rifles. So did I, many years ago. And then I saw a really old book...... and there was my formula, written down and printed when my Grandfather still was swapping guns for furs at the Hudson's Bay post at Fort Edmonton!

This hobby is a LOT of fun!

Take care, keep 'em smokin'..... or not!

PS: when you buy your powder, be sure to ask for ESS ARE FOUR SEVEN FIVE NINE. Asking for it as an IMR number is like asking for Ford parts at the Chrysler dealer! Keep shooting!
 
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^ x2!

I really appreciate your input! I will be assembling some Martini-Henry rounds soon (when I get my hands on 4759) and this is very valuable info indeed. One last question though... since BP is measured by volume and smokeless by weight (yet both are in grains, lol), which do I use to calculate the amount of 4759 needed if I know the necessary BP charge?

Basically, do I simply measure the weight of the BP first and then multiply by 38% or do I have to use the volume meter with 4759, as if it were BP? Thanks in advance, you're a great help!
 
This gets us 'way back into the mists of history once again.

The Brits never did use the American system of naming cartridges, even though it made a lot of sense. They preferred such designations as .577 Snider, .577/.450 Martini-Henry, things like that. We have to remember, though, that they had some reason for what appears to be smugness at this late date: the .577 Snider WAS the FIRST centrefire military cartridge and its replacement, the .450 Martini-Henry, actually was 2 years before the US adopted the .45-70. We're going 'WAY back.

That said, under the quite-practical American system, the Martini-Henry round would have been described as a .45-85-480: .45" calibre, 85 grains of Black (RFG-2: Rifle Fine Grain Number 2, to be correct) and a 480-grain bullet.

Your LOAD for Black is 85 grains, so the corresponding load for SR-4759 would be....
(.38x85=) 32.3 grains WEIGHT.

You might drop it just a bit: the expression "kick like a Martini" happens to pre-date the invention of the drink by half a century or so!

When half of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old b itch:
She's as human as you are, you treat her as sitch,
And she'll fight for the Young British Soldier!

Kipling (who else?) "The Young British Soldier" in "Barrack Room Ballads"
 
This gets us 'way back into the mists of history once again...

Many thanks once again! This thread is gold thanks to your input. Those posts explaining old-school smokeless loading procedures off BP loads should be stickied! We can't let this go to waste and future generations may need this info too!

P.S.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm saving this webpage to my storage hard drive (for future reference and to c&p to help out noobs, lol).

;)
 
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