600 yard MOA Moose rifle build - 300 WSM or 300 WIN Mag? Sako/Tikka/Weatherby/Kimber?

Mudduck

Mudduck

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Ive decided I want another rifle for longer range moose hunting where 500 - 600 yard shots can be easily made due to forestry cuts. ( and yes I can ethically shoot at that distance because I regularly shoot target at longer distances and practice regularly)
Im going with either 300 WSM or 300 WinMag and looking to push 200 grain pills (most likely Nosler partitions or Barnes TSX)

I want to keep the rifle under $2000. (I already have a Swaro Z5 scope waiting for it)
For out of the box accuracy Im considering the following - Sako 85, Tikka T3 with upgraded stock, Weatherby, Kimber, Cooper or Forbes.
Weight is not a big issue as we ride our ATVs to lookout spots and sit - so I dont expect to be walking long distances in the bush with this rifle

Anyone notice any big differences between 300 WSM vs 300 WinMag for 200 - 220 gr pills

Any recommendations for out of the box accuracy in reference to brands I have mentioned
 
Why not give the Remington Mil-Spec 5R in .300 WM a try? I've read nothing but positive things about it and it sure sounds good. They are also not very expensive at ~$1300 or so.
 
Tikka mags may limit your handload accuracy potential. I have no experience with kimber or weatherby but sako's in a long action have generous length to play with seating depth. Not sure what twist rate is required for 220's but the Sako and tikka have 11 twists.

For those weight of bullets I would think you would be better off with a win mag.
 
600 yards is way too far for any cartridge to make a clean kill regardless of the shooter's skill. Energy just isn't there at those distances. And the kill zone on Bullwinkle is a lot smaller than any target's bull. Think about 9", not 24.
A 180(nobody loads 200 plus) WSM does have a slight advantage, but both drop over 30"(the Win drops a meter) at 500 with under 2,000 ft/lbs. of energy.
Otherwise, one hunting rifle is the same as any other.
 
I have a Tikka/Tactical in 300 Win Mag ,equipped with a TRG muzzle brake makes it a joy to shoot and if I get on the wind right the 13.5" steel disc at 1140yds can be hit with certainty. I use a 208 A-max at 2850fps. The magazine is limited to 3.34" COL. There I use a 200gr Accubond at 2900+fps. 600yd moa targets are easy with this rifle.
 
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sunray said:
600 yards is way too far for any cartridge to make a clean kill regardless of the shooter's skill. Energy just isn't there at those distances. And the kill zone on Bullwinkle is a lot smaller than any target's bull. Think about 9", not 24.
A 180(nobody loads 200 plus) WSM does have a slight advantage, but both drop over 30"(the Win drops a meter) at 500 with under 2,000 ft/lbs. of energy.
Otherwise, one hunting rifle is the same as any other.
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Um...where to start. It is not too far for any cartridge to make a clean kill. Lots of people, me included, load 200gr bullets because...anyways lots do.

There is no blanket statement you can make regarding what drop tables tell you.

A moose's kill zone is much bigger than 9".

Not at 600, but it gives you an idea (this was from a cut-block, not a range - and those are 1" squares):
496Yards.jpg
 
.284 said:
Tikka mags may limit your handload accuracy potential. I have no experience with kimber or weatherby but sako's in a long action have generous length to play with seating depth. Not sure what twist rate is required for 220's but the Sako and tikka have 11 twists.

For those weight of bullets I would think you would be better off with a win mag.
Click to expand...

Some great info here....you may not get 600 yard accuracy with heavy for caliber bullets in a factory rifle because of twist rate. I haven't run the numbers but my bet is that you'd get higher or close to equal impact velocities at that range with 165s or 180s.
 
sheephunter said:
Some great info here....you may not get 600 yard accuracy with heavy for caliber bullets in a factory rifle because of twist rate. I haven't run the numbers but my bet is that you'd get higher or close to equal impact velocities at that range with 165s or 180s.
Click to expand...

Respectfully disagree, heavy for caliber high BC bullets are the way to go for long range, in a 30 cal the 200gr NAB will carry ~20% more energy than a 165 after 300yds or so.
 
sunray said:
600 yards is way too far for any cartridge to make a clean kill regardless of the shooter's skill. Energy just isn't there at those distances. And the kill zone on Bullwinkle is a lot smaller than any target's bull. Think about 9", not 24.
A 180(nobody loads 200 plus) WSM does have a slight advantage, but both drop over 30"(the Win drops a meter) at 500 with under 2,000 ft/lbs. of energy.
Otherwise, one hunting rifle is the same as any other.
Click to expand...

Lots of people load 200 plus grain projectiles, a lot of members on this board handload so factory ammo doesn't hold us back. If the OP is absolutely determined to have a 5-600 yard capable moose gun and it must be a .30 cal I would say that the .30-378 Weatherby requires serious consideration. I would ditch the WSM, its short case just doesn't add anything for your desired use and depending on your rifles action length and magazine length you may not be able to effectively load the long heavy bullets you are hoping to shoot.

I personally would be looking to the .338's, meaning the .340 Weatherby, .338 RUM or .338-378 Weatherby Magnum and not to forget the .338 Lapua if you're willing to foot the bill. Myself I'd just get closer and use something less exotic.
 
BCBRAD said:
Respectfully disagree, heavy for caliber high BC bullets are the way to go for long range, in a 30 cal the 200gr NAB will carry ~20% more energy than a 165 after 300yds or so.
Click to expand...

I was talking impact velocity not energy... Not doubt a high BC bullet will ultimately win out but a higher initial velocity with a lighter bullet often trumps the higher BC for a considerable distance...often much further than practical hunting ranges. And at the end of the day, as long as we can keep impact velocities above 2,000 fps for premium bullets, it's kind of a case of the moose won't know the difference. At that point all that matters is accuracy.
 
I hate to say it (as I don't generally talk up the 7mm being a 30 cal guy) but the heavy for weight 7mm calibers will likely give you better long distance impact with better BC.....
 
sunray said:
600 yards is way too far for any cartridge to make a clean kill regardless of the shooter's skill. Energy just isn't there at those distances. And the kill zone on Bullwinkle is a lot smaller than any target's bull. Think about 9", not 24.
A 180(nobody loads 200 plus) WSM does have a slight advantage, but both drop over 30"(the Win drops a meter) at 500 with under 2,000 ft/lbs. of energy.
Otherwise, one hunting rifle is the same as any other.
Click to expand...

Wow....wow.

Sunray- do you actually own a rifle? Have you ever shot one? At long range? Have you ever hunted??

I've read some real doozies from you over the years but this one right here absolutely takes the cake...This post right here has exposed your incredible lack of knowledge regarding animals, hunting and most glaringly- everything to do with rifle ballistics.

Where on the internet did you search to come up with that response? I mean, you just can't make this stuff up lol. Or, I suppose you could...and perhaps you just did...

Have to say it again...wow.
 
If you want to shoot heavy bullets scrap the idea of the wsm. The bullets have to be seated to deep. I'm a fan of the 300RUM but the 300 wm is not too far behind it. The 200 accubond is probably your best choice for a bullet.

Neil
 
Having loaded both - the 300 Win Mag gets the nod......300 WSM doesnt do well with the 180-200 grain bullets as far as load density / compressed loads go. This is cause the action is short and the bullets are long.....no where to seat the bullet 'cept in the powder room! The 300 Win Mag has more than enough energy at 500-600 yards to do the job.......provided you are using proper bullets....Barnes LRX / TTSX are my go to bullets! I'm Not an accubond fan but others like them. Another great choice is the Swift Scirrocco II.

If your serious about the weatherbys definaltley look at the 30-378, 300 weatherby, and the 300 RUM. and of course any of the big 338's. I use a 338 RUM (hunting) and 338Lapua (long range) and they will be a better long range round for your intended purposes. Bigger heavier bullets, better SD, roughly the same B.C. but carry a lot more energy at those longer ranges. Dont pass up on the 225 TTSX in the 338 as this is my go to bullet in the RUM and this year hammered a Spike elk at 475 yards and got just over 48" of penetration.

Going forward.......whatever you pick - .300 win mag on up....use the heaviest, best B.C controlled expansion bullets you can find and shoot accuratley. Also remember the worst possible shot could come in any hunting situation............ yup thats the one rioght up close and personal (<50 yards) you will need a bullet that can and will stand up to that kind of abuse!!! and also perform way out yonder whent that shot presents itself!!

Good luck in your decision!! (nice problem to have)
 
For your application forget about lightweights like a Kimber or Forbes. You want to be around 8.5-11lbs all in with some barrel contour to speak of. Not saying either rifle isn't capable (I've owned plenty of Montanas and currently shoot a NULA) it's just ridiculously easier to hit at range with a meatier rifle. With the scope already bought and paid for 2000$ is a lot of cheddar to play with. SuperCub gives some sound advice in his post above.
I'd suggest an XCR-II in .338RUM myself, ditch the factory tupperware for a Mcmillan stock of your choice and use the rest of your cash for reloading components.
 
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I like the Sako...I have the 300WM in a m75ss I had from new since 1997. I had a m75 Greywolf 300WSM bought in mint condition back in 2008 but I sold it to a friend that wanted to upgrade. I did see a little while back a Sako m75ss 300RUM for sale here on CGN, or maybe it was AO - be another great choice IF you want to shoot heavier than 200gr bullets.

If you are going to reload, I would choose the 300WM route myself especially with heavier bullets than 180gr.

I did just recently found a Sako m75 Greywolf 300WSM for sale...PM me for details as I am tempted to buy it for myself.

The new Nosler LRAB in 190 or 210gr would be a sweet bullet. 200gr TSX or 200 LRX Barnes would be great too.

For me, my reloads are with 180gr Accubonds and since I was sooo happy performance at the range and on big game, I stuck with them. The TTSX in 180gr would be a great bullet as well.

I am sighted in @ 3.5" high at 100 metres, RL22 with Federal 215 primers, seated to just fit the clip.

Just to throw a kink into your plans:evil:, I just seen the new Sako m85 "Long Range" rifle listed on Sako's website......WOW, I like:rockOn:!!!! Black laminate stock. I may look at one in a 338 Lapua...don't really like a 26" barrel for the 300WM but since I have one already I will look at the 338 Lapua. I do not know the price, but will call the dealer I buy most of my new rifles from to inquire about.

Link for your info:
Sako m85 - Long Range
 
The Remington 5R was a great suggestion, also consider the Sendero in 300WM which most people have been very happy with accuracy wise.
It also has one of the longest magazine lengths to allow you to load the heavier pills close to the lands.
 
What the OP is asking about is a "hunting rig"not a target rifle. In the 300 WSM you can use a 200 grain Sierra 200 grain Boat Tail. It is designed as a hunting bullet and should do everything you would expect it to do at 500 -600 yards.. I think that this would be the bullet to load in the WSM case because - while it is heavy, it will utilize the powder efficiently, and the boat tail will provide some assistance on a shot of this distance.

With the 300 Win Mag - I'd probably use the same bullet. The case may provide an opportunity to load a bit more powder and may be a tad faster then the WSM but it will still work well at the 500 -600 yard range.

I shot a bull moose at the 600 yard mark with the 300 Win Mag and the bullet still produced an exit hole that was close to the size of a tennis ball. I was amazed and it earned my respect for hunting at longer distances.

Either way, I think you'll be fine with your choice. Be it the WSM or the Win Mag.
 
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