600 yards

Nice shooting... longer range shooting is fun... I have to agree with the others that said fire 10 shot groups... the first time I took my 223 out to 600 yards thats all I did was fire strings of 10 shots it help bigtime with figureing out if your loads are consistant and how accurate you really are...

Your target is a little less then one minute of angle so if you can keep 10 shots in that black circle at 700 I would say your doing pretty darn good !

Lets see that rifle:D
 
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I was invited out to Volks range a few weeks back by a member of the BCRA on an introductry day of long range shooting , I was useing my Rem5R shooting .175 Gr matchkings , the fellow that invited me out was shooting a custom rem F class rifle in .223 , the fellow i was shooting with scored
3 V-bulls and mostly 4's and 5's on twelve shots , i never got a V-Bull at 600 but scored several 5's and 4's my worst was a three , i was told that was pretty good shooting for a Tin Horn , we shot at 400 , 500 and 600 , it was a real eye opener and a real challange gaugeing the wind , but there were many seasoned competition shooters on hand to coach us , what a fun day of shooting . now when i hear the storys at the range when some guy is boasting that he only gets out to the range once a year with his pump action .3006 and shoots moose and deer offhand at 600 yards with factory ammo it realy makes me laugh:sniper:
volksrange011.jpg

volksrange003.jpg
 
todbartell: LR is a bit like crack - but don't worry, the first one is free... ;-) Nice picture of your reticle and target image, BTW. Does it look like that (sharp crosshairs, blurry target image) when you look through the scope? Don't worry about "thick" crosshairs, you can aim extremely accurately with big thick crosshairs (in fact, I prefer thick crosshairs) or iron sights (have a look at Olympic target pistols, and just how fat their sights are). What sort of groups is your rifle/ammo shooting at 100-ish yards?


Machinist: Nice picture of Volkes range. I had heard that it was a pretty range, but that picture is really great! Good to see that you had a nice experience there, and sounds like you might be back for more. Re: hunting stories, the more long range target shooting you do, the more that you can fully "appreciate" these tales, eh?! It's probably different out West, but around here, when you take a hunter to the range and staple up a target at 100 yards, most simply cannot believe the distance - "that's a long ways away" (yes, it is; it's 100 yards, and it looks like a long ways away because it's a lot farther away than a deer at 35 yards through the woods!)
 
LR is a bit like crack - but don't worry, the first one is free... ;-)

Lot of truth in that. A buddy passed me a .338 edge, told me the elevation and wind and pointed at some 900+ yard rocks. I was hooked from the first Keeeeerrrwhommmmmmp. It became somewhat more expensive after that.
 
Personally, that is the challenge. Being able to diagnose the winds and hit a reasonably sized target first shot at LR.

Imagine: some people's lives depend on that ability! :eek:

Mystic, you seem to be doleing out some good wind gauging advice in this thread for beginners... Me being one of the latter, could you give some additional pointers? I'll be trying out 300 yds soon and, assuming my local 600 yd range becomes operational (not many in Qc), wind will no doubt play a more and more important role in my shooting.

Nowadays I just wait until wind dies down before taking a shot, but I always wondered how does one "work up" to figuring out deflection due to wind. Should I pick up one of those windspeed measuring devices? How do I know how much deflection to expect? Are the markings on the box the cartridges come in sufficient? Do you dial in for wind, or just apply some holdover?

All tips appeciated!!! :D
 
In matches that are fired "single string", the usual practice is that shooter has a certain amount of time to fire his shots. He is permitted to "wait out" wind changes, provided he doesn't run out of time. The USA and Australia practice "single string" for their long range shooting.

In Canada, we "pair fire" (we have two shooters assigned to each target), and in Britain they have three shooters per target. Under this system, a shooter is allowed only a certain amount of time from when his target appears until when he must get his shot away (45 seconds is our limit). So while one could "get away with" waiting five or ten seconds (and you're not really supposed to be doing that), waiting for the wind to die or to steady isn't much of a choice. So you have to figure out what to *DO* about the wind you are confronted with, dial it in, and break your shot.

In shooting matches, the principal indicators of wind are the wind flags (typically one or more rows of flags every hundred yards/meters running down the range), and the mirage in your spotting scope. Under many forms of long range fullbore competition, personal wind indicators are not permitted. One of the things you learn is how to judge the wind using these principal indicators, plus all other secondary sources of wind information. In the field you won't have wind flags, but you might have some mirage to read (this depends mostly on lighting conditions, and a bit on atmospheric conditions too). You might also have some secondary indicators that you can use (leaves, grass, smoke, etc), and perhaps you are able to use a wind meter.

I've never used a wind meter to shoot with. I imagine that one might be used usefully to more rapidly calibrate one's own senses of the conditions, but that's actually pretty easy and quick to learn with from range flags.

With iron sights, it is most common to dial the full correction into the knobs, and then aim center (in particular with aperture front and rear sights; it's not easy to "hold off" with that arrangement).

With scopes, you can hold off, or you can dial in and aim centre, or you can do a combination of both. There are good reasons for each of these practices.

I don't know what's printed on cartridge boxes, but it's probably not particularly useful. Find some fullbore shooters, start shooting with them, and you'll learn how to read wind.

A good source of data is to run a ballistics program for your ammo, and get some personalized ballistics information. I find the online "JBM Basic Ballistics" to be most useful.

One of the pieces of the puzzle that you need, is to know how much your bullet will drift, with a certain windspeed, at the various distances you are interested in shooting. For example, in fullbore we shoot 300, 500, 600, 800 and 900m, typically with a .308 Win firing a 155 grain HPBT match bullet at 3000fps more or less. So we're interested in how much one mph (or ten mph) of direct crosswind will drift our bullet at each of these ranges. And even more than "how many inches" of drift at each range, it is much more useful to know "how many minutes" of drift we'll get, since "minutes" is how we think when we want to keep things straight (our sights move in minutes, our target plotting diagrams are in minutes, etc). Everything else is based on this - strong or weaker winds result in proportionately more or less drift, and wind angle changes result in a reduction in drift that is related to the angle (proportional to cosine of the angle from perpendicular; but there's a more useful, much simpler non-mathematical way to really figure this one out)
 
Brutus, in the first picture, we would call that iron-sighted rifle a "Target Rifle" in Canada (and in the rest of the Commonwealth countries that shoot fullbore). The term "Palma Rifle" (which is a single-shot, long range 800-1000 yard iron sighted rifle in .308 Win) is most often used by the Americans, mostly in order to differentiate it from their other kinds of iron-sighted rifles (e.g. what they call a "Match Rifle", which is an iron-sighted repeater, fired standing sitting and prone, at 200-300-600 yards).

Our "Target Rifle"s are .223 Rem or .308 Win, with iron sights. We fire them prone, slowfire, at 300-1000 yards. To shoot in the international Palma Match (which is now formally known as the World Long Range Championships team match), any of our Target Rifles are legal (except, strangely, if they are in .223).

The targets used for prone fullbore shooting have a (more or less) 2 MOA "5-ring" (or "bull"), and inside of that is a (approx) 1-MOA "V-bull". After a shooter learns the basics of sling and iron sight shooting, he is able to keep almost all of his shots inside the 5-ring, and perhaps half (or more) of his shots in the V-bull. Even in moderately challenging wind conditions, a halfways competent shooter can get more than half of his shots in the bull at short range (300 yards or metres) and at mid range (500 and 600, yard or metres).

At long range (900y and 1000y, or 800m and 900m), things can get much trickier in challenging wind conditions. While a good shooter can pretty easily hold the bull (24" diameter) with his rifle and ammo, insofar as aiming and grouping goes, it gets to be quite a challenge indeed to get ten out of ten shots into the bull (for a score of 50) when wind conditions are even mildly challenging. But it's under mildly challenging (or moreso) conditions at long range where the fun really starts...
 
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The fellow coaching the open site shooter is Tom Walters , he is well known amongst target shooters and has competed all over the world ,
The other fellow shooting prone is shooting a Weatherby .270 Mag mark 5 hunting rifle , the hunting rifles sure showed there short comeings at these long ranges , even with some of the coaches shooting them for fun . All of the rem tactiacl rifkes VTR's / LTL 's P modles and 5R's did quite well in stock form , nothing like the " F " class rifles they are far above as far as accuracy goes
 
Target Rifle ??

Not sure how Tom did that day , i will be talking to him this week and will let you know , it was really something to witness as the " F " class guys were dropping that little pill into the bullseye at 600 yards with the wind blowing like that , the picture of the other two rifles shot really well one is a 6Br and i believe it has a Krieger barrel , Mcmillian stock and a Barnard action , really trick stuff

Thank you for the detailed refresher, on the proper terminology used in the known distance target shooting.
Again, I wonder how this target rifle shooter did on that day Machinist?
 
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Hey Machinist, You should come up to Kamloops and try shooting in one of the 300M matches; there is one happening June 6-7.

Did you happen to hook-up with Denis Lapierre at the Vokes shoot?
 
Volkes

I was shooting with Brian Myville , i believe you know him , Denis was shooting allong side us with a fellow he invited , I shoot with Denis quite often at Mission Club , thoes are his rifles in that picture , i may show up for the Kamloops shoot , next year i will get more serious after Mcfee is finished with my 5R next spring:D


Hey Machinist, You should come up to Kamloops and try shooting in one of the 300M matches; there is one happening June 6-7.

Did you happen to hook-up with Denis Lapierre at the Vokes shoot?
 
That Volkes range is breathtaking, btw. Wow.

In matches that are fired "single string", the usual practice is that shooter has a certain amount of time to fire his shots. He is permitted to "wait out" wind changes, provided he doesn't run out of time. The USA and Australia practice "single string" for their long range shooting.

In Canada, we "pair fire" (we have two shooters assigned to each target), and in Britain they have three shooters per target. Under this system, a shooter is allowed only a certain amount of time from when his target appears until when he must get his shot away (45 seconds is our limit). So while one could "get away with" waiting five or ten seconds (and you're not really supposed to be doing that), waiting for the wind to die or to steady isn't much of a choice. So you have to figure out what to *DO* about the wind you are confronted with, dial it in, and break your shot.

In shooting matches, the principal indicators of wind are the wind flags (typically one or more rows of flags every hundred yards/meters running down the range), and the mirage in your spotting scope. Under many forms of long range fullbore competition, personal wind indicators are not permitted. One of the things you learn is how to judge the wind using these principal indicators, plus all other secondary sources of wind information. In the field you won't have wind flags, but you might have some mirage to read (this depends mostly on lighting conditions, and a bit on atmospheric conditions too). You might also have some secondary indicators that you can use (leaves, grass, smoke, etc), and perhaps you are able to use a wind meter.

I've never used a wind meter to shoot with. I imagine that one might be used usefully to more rapidly calibrate one's own senses of the conditions, but that's actually pretty easy and quick to learn with from range flags.

With iron sights, it is most common to dial the full correction into the knobs, and then aim center (in particular with aperture front and rear sights; it's not easy to "hold off" with that arrangement).

With scopes, you can hold off, or you can dial in and aim centre, or you can do a combination of both. There are good reasons for each of these practices.

I don't know what's printed on cartridge boxes, but it's probably not particularly useful. Find some fullbore shooters, start shooting with them, and you'll learn how to read wind.

A good source of data is to run a ballistics program for your ammo, and get some personalized ballistics information. I find the online "JBM Basic Ballistics" to be most useful.

One of the pieces of the puzzle that you need, is to know how much your bullet will drift, with a certain windspeed, at the various distances you are interested in shooting. For example, in fullbore we shoot 300, 500, 600, 800 and 900m, typically with a .308 Win firing a 155 grain HPBT match bullet at 3000fps more or less. So we're interested in how much one mph (or ten mph) of direct crosswind will drift our bullet at each of these ranges. And even more than "how many inches" of drift at each range, it is much more useful to know "how many minutes" of drift we'll get, since "minutes" is how we think when we want to keep things straight (our sights move in minutes, our target plotting diagrams are in minutes, etc). Everything else is based on this - strong or weaker winds result in proportionately more or less drift, and wind angle changes result in a reduction in drift that is related to the angle (proportional to cosine of the angle from perpendicular; but there's a more useful, much simpler non-mathematical way to really figure this one out)

Thanks for this, let me reply to some points:
- When you buy some Federal GM or Hornady match, you'll get a little table with deflections at every 100yds up to 300 (or 500, depending on brand). Here's an example: http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=150

- How accurate are those programs? I take it that the bigger challenge must be gauging the wind as opposed to memorizing the deflections at various distances.

- The factory ammo I use is 168gr BTHP Match

- The math part is no problem (I've got a B.Eng ;)), although you'll have to convert all those MOA's to milliradians for me, because that's what my scope adjustments are!

- Where can I find a good coach in Qc?
 
Thanks for this, let me reply to some points:
- When you buy some Federal GM or Hornady match, you'll get a little table with deflections at every 100yds up to 300 (or 500, depending on brand). Here's an example: http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=150

- The factory ammo I use is 168gr BTHP Match

OK, that's standard Federal Gold Medal 168 match ammo. Very good stuff. The _only_ bad thing about it, is paying for it... ;-)

(And it really is good ammo. It is surprisingly difficult to make handloads for your rifle that will shoot as well as this factory ammo. Once you can, you can pat yourself on the back, knowing that your skills as a handloader have indeed "arrived")

Here are the two charts that they provide on that page that are relevant to us here - the drop:
GM308-LongTrajectoryGraph.aspx


and the drift:
GM308-windDriftGraph.aspx



- How accurate are those programs? I take it that the bigger challenge must be gauging the wind as opposed to memorizing the deflections at various distances.

- The math part is no problem (I've got a B.Eng ;)), although you'll have to convert all those MOA's to milliradians for me, because that's what my scope adjustments are!

Good! ;-)

In some ways milliradians can be more intuitive, being a "1 in 1000" unit of arc.

When you mix units and deal in yards of distance and inches on the target, MOA are pretty close (within 5%) of being a "1 in 100" unit of arc (1 MOA is about 1 inch at 100 yard, or 6 inches at 600 yards, or 10 inches at 1000 yards, or 8.5 inches at 850 yards, etc...). (if you care, an MOA is actually about 1.047 inches per hundred yards - but like I said, for most purposes "an inch" is a good enough description) And since meters are within ten percent of being the same thing as yards, an MOA is pretty close to "an inch per hundred meters" as well (if you care to be picky, a meter is a bit more than nine percent more than a yard - but that usually doesn't matter for this sort of thing).

What you need to do as a shooter, is not deal in "inches of wind drift" or bullet drop, but in units of angle (MOA or milliradians, at your convenience). This puts your drifts and drops into the same units as your scope (or iron sights) adjustments.

Also, you should convert (or express, or think of) your target's dimensions not in inches, but in the same units of angle. So if the "bull-5" ring is about 2MOA in diameter (as it is in Canadian, American, British, Australian etc fullbore targets), that is a much more useful fact to know than it is a particular number of inches. If a shot lands on the right edge of the bull line, that means it is 1 MOA from the centre of the target. So I immediately know that had I fired that shot with a sight setting 1MOA to the left of what I actually used, that shot would have been perfectly centred.

Or, if my shots are slightly low but still in the bull, I can see that I probably need to bring my group up by half a minute.

(What you don't want to do is this: "the 5-ring is twelve inches in diameter. So my shot is 6 inches from dead centre. So I need to move my bullet six inches left. Since I am at 600 yards, and once scope click is 1/4" at 100 yards, then I need to move (hmmmm...) 24 clicks left". Don't do that math up on the mound when you are shooting; do it before hand, express everything in minutes (or mils), and deal with consistent units!!)


I'll let you do the heavy lifting, but I'll give an example. If you read Federal's drop chart, I see that it indicates that at 500 yards the bullet will be about 52 inches lower that it would be at 200 yards. I will show you how to calculate how many MOA, and how many mils, you would have to move your scope from whatever it takes to shoot the bullet to your point of aim at 200 yards, in order to get it to hit your point of aim at 500 yards.

52" divided by 5(hundred yards) is 5.4 minutes. To the closest 1/4, this is "5.5" minutes. So, you add 5.5 minutes to your 200 yard elevation setting, and your bullet ought to hit where your reticle is pointing. If your scope has 1/4 minute clicks (this is most common), that would be 22 clicks "up". But try not to deal in big handfuls of "clicks", it's easy to get lost that way; it's much, much better to deal in "minutes" (and parts thereof).

In milliradians, you need to use the same units for both distance to the target, and transverse deflection. 52 inches is (52/36) = 1.44 yards. So 1.44 yards / 500 yards (times 1000 milliradians per radian) = 2.88 milliradians. If your scope has tenth-mil clicks, then 2.9 mils is what you should use.

- Where can I find a good coach in Qc?

There are two ways that I know of.

One is to pay for one, and hire a professional one. That'll cost hundreds of dollars a day though, so that is probably not practical.

The other way is to get a free coach. Which you can find in the form of a fellow competitor, if you become involved in competitive shooting. You'll pay for your "free" coaching, by spending hours (years in fact) on a rifle range. Which is only a good idea if you enjoy this....!

There are a number of very good fullbore shooters in Quebec, but I don't think any fullbore is being shot in the Montreal area any more (the 1000 yard range just east of Mtl. has been closed to shooting for several years now). There is fullbore shooting done in Quebec City at Valcartier (a nice 600 yard range), if it is practical for you to shoot there you should contact the PQRA /ATPQ (P.Q. Rifle Association) and ask them.

There is also some very good fullbore shooting done in the Ottawa area at the Connaught ranges (a 900m national facility, where our annual championships are fired) by the NCRRA (Natl. Capital Region Rifle Association).

Visit either of those, and look into fullbore shooting (either with iron sights and sling, which is known as "Target Rifle", or with a scope and rest, which is "F-Class"). You can spend a lifetime mastering it, if you are so inclined.
 
Machinist,

If you want to do the Kamloops shoot with a 6BR, let me know and we'll get you hooked-up with a gun. I am loaning one to another shooter in his first year of shooting, we can get you set up too!

When Mick gets done with your 5R, you'll be scaring the crap out of all the better shooters on your own!
 
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