Dude in G.P.
CGN Regular
- Location
- Having Fun on The Firing Line
misanthropist,
Wow, just wow. The second last post nailed it exactly. Thank you.
Wow, just wow. The second last post nailed it exactly. Thank you.
6061: further thoughts and new information
- Thread starter misanthropist
- Start date
Frankly, the best money can buy is stellite lined CHF barrels. Not for accuracy, but for the ultimate in full-auto performance.
Same goes for CL CHF barrels. Chrome is used because 50 years ago the US ARMY specified it to be thus - it was the best economical choice in the 1960's for full-auto wear resistance. Today there are better processes such as ePVD, Nitro-Carburization, etc. as used in Glocks, various Steyr and HK products, CWIS point defence gatlings, etc. They are not commonly found in the AR15 because AR15's to save money use the same bulk parts as the M16 in most cases and the M16 leaves no room for product imagination.
In a semi-auto, the ultimate would be an air gauged, cut-rifled barrel that has been cryo-treated to remove all stress. That being said, such a barrel costs more than the entire NEA Ar15.
polygonal button-rifled barrels are not new to the AR15 though. It's almost all Noveske uses these days, for example, though the NEA guns have what I believe to be a better surface treatment then Noveske... but that's another argument altogether. When my NEA barrel arrives I will review it honestly. Fro a mere paper specification perspective though, it should be a step up from the Noveske polygonals.
I can't speak to the NEA-15, but I have seen a good many photos of european mil users with NEA G36 magwells and also VZ58S accessories.
To be fair to NEA, the NEA-15 has only been out in the wild for a couple weeks now. If any operators are using it, it's a bit early to expect a bunch of operator ####.
You do know NEA is an Ontario company, right?
Have you been the the NEA website? It's not like they're hiding it or anything...
http://northeasternarms.com/accessories/ar-15/7-5-barrel
And here is the US Gov standard MIL-B-11595E listing the three acceptable alloys for making M16 barrels.
I haven't asked the NEA engineers, but I'm guessing they are using ORD4150 as there would be little benefit to resulferize it prior to ferritic or nitro-carb surface treatment. YMMV. You typically resulferize to make a barrel easier to machine (i.e. a free-machining steel). When doing non-chrome surface treatments you are better off biting the bullet on tool wear and using non-resulferized alloys in my opinion.
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
I'll definitely agree with this point. The internet has made researching so much easier.
Even when I had to have books or articles pulled out of my universities archives, I could still read the abstract on line, and have it sent to the circulation desk without any difficulties. I also had access to thousands of on-line articles and journals, most of which I could simply download and read at home.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Yeah to a point....
Try researching the science behind muzzle brakes and flash hiders. That is an exercise in frustration, let me tell you. Lots of internet know it all's out there, but there is very little technical data. There's nothing out there that tells you "do this and X will happen". I actually had to get a library card and send away for some older texts through inter library loan during my research. WTF is up with that?!!
I felt like I was back in the stone ages reading hyroglifs...
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Yeah to a point....
Try researching the science behind muzzle brakes and flash hiders. That is an exercise in frustration, let me tell you. Lots of internet know it all's out there, but there is very little technical data. There's nothing out there that tells you "do this and X will happen". I actually had to get a library card and send away for some older texts through inter library loan during my research. WTF is up with that?!!
If they're Hittite, drop me a line, I might be able to help.
Well, we seem to agree that CHF is the best option for longevity, which is why I asked the question, as we are talking general use carbines/rifles here, and not bench guns.
I didn't make any comment about the barrel treatment, but I would also agree that some type of nitro-carburizing, offers the best form of barrel treatment these days, and it is well proven, just not yet in ARs.
As for barrel material, "4150 Chromalloy Steel" is a pretty general description that does not equate to "11595E Certified" barrel steel, and I was looking for further information. I am in the market for two new barrels, and the NEA barrels are a possibility, provided they tick off all the right boxes.
I asked about the photo's, because from the various posts here it appears as if NEA has shipped thousands of ARs to various countries, including some HS/LD Mil/LE units, who have apparently requested/specified various design criteria/features that have been incorporated into the final product.
Finally, the best pizzas have a combination of cheeses.
Regards.
Mark
I didn't make any comment about the barrel treatment, but I would also agree that some type of nitro-carburizing, offers the best form of barrel treatment these days, and it is well proven, just not yet in ARs.
As for barrel material, "4150 Chromalloy Steel" is a pretty general description that does not equate to "11595E Certified" barrel steel, and I was looking for further information. I am in the market for two new barrels, and the NEA barrels are a possibility, provided they tick off all the right boxes.
I asked about the photo's, because from the various posts here it appears as if NEA has shipped thousands of ARs to various countries, including some HS/LD Mil/LE units, who have apparently requested/specified various design criteria/features that have been incorporated into the final product.
Finally, the best pizzas have a combination of cheeses.
Regards.
Mark
Yeah, but I'm in Vancouver.
Just bought a place, have a new mortgage to deal with.
North Eastern Arms
Manufacturer-Business Member
I think there a few people that take our statements to the extreme... Next thing you know after the story has passed through a few threads we have thousands of AR's in every SF unit.. It's really amazing how that works.
Back to barrels .4150 Chromoly Steel is pretty general statement yes (considering many just put milspec steel), but we don't have the room to write the address of the guys son that goes to school near the blank house either.. I think it's fairly safe to assume that if someone is making polygonal barrels from 4150 it's not slabs of an old Chinese freighter hull. Our blanks come from a very reputable source. We've been asked not to name that source, so I have to oblidge. So without going into too much detail we have posted the standard industry specs.
The type and means of manufacturing on our barrels has been explained. A 4150 ordnance steel barrel, button cut, medium contoured and then treated with an advanced form of nitrocarburization. These aren't support weapons.. But were still trying to add much more than is required, and more than most provide. If you would be happier trading our barrel in for a off the shelf CHF barrel, we can oblidge.
I don't understand why we're held to such a higher standard than every other manufacturer. Who else is asked to name suppliers, who else is asked to supply in-house materials test data, who else is asked to hand over customer lists. I think that people are going to have to accept that a manufacturer is not going to spill all their beans. And we have to accept that not everyone will be happy with that.
Back to barrels .4150 Chromoly Steel is pretty general statement yes (considering many just put milspec steel), but we don't have the room to write the address of the guys son that goes to school near the blank house either.. I think it's fairly safe to assume that if someone is making polygonal barrels from 4150 it's not slabs of an old Chinese freighter hull. Our blanks come from a very reputable source. We've been asked not to name that source, so I have to oblidge. So without going into too much detail we have posted the standard industry specs.
The type and means of manufacturing on our barrels has been explained. A 4150 ordnance steel barrel, button cut, medium contoured and then treated with an advanced form of nitrocarburization. These aren't support weapons.. But were still trying to add much more than is required, and more than most provide. If you would be happier trading our barrel in for a off the shelf CHF barrel, we can oblidge.
I don't understand why we're held to such a higher standard than every other manufacturer. Who else is asked to name suppliers, who else is asked to supply in-house materials test data, who else is asked to hand over customer lists. I think that people are going to have to accept that a manufacturer is not going to spill all their beans. And we have to accept that not everyone will be happy with that.
Well, I don't know that I would say you are necessarily held to a higher standard...most of this information is now commonly demanded of all the "tier 1" rifles.
So if anything, take it as a compliment...your customers are comparing you to Daniel Defense et al, rather than Bushmaster.
Nobody asks this of budget-grade guns. Many people ask this of the high-end stuff. I know exactly who supplies Centurion with their barrel blanks...and that ought to be protected information. I know who DD get their barrel blanks from as well. In fact I could say that about half a dozen top tier makers, if not more. This is not because I know people at each company, but because this information has been published, or at least sufficiently alluded to in AR circles, that it has been very easy to connect the dots.
Do I know every supplier of every part? No. But in most cases, somebody trustworthy is able to independently verify details.
You guys are taking heat because you're new, and nobody knows where your stuff is coming from.
But frankly this is part of the new paradigm I referred to earlier. This is not 2005 anymore and it's no longer enough to say, "our guns work". Consumers are used to having a lot of detailed technical information now, and if you won't give it to them, the automatic assumption will be that it is because the truth isn't pretty.
So you can blow off the requests for details if you want, but in the long run, I guarantee that this will cost you.
So if anything, take it as a compliment...your customers are comparing you to Daniel Defense et al, rather than Bushmaster.
Nobody asks this of budget-grade guns. Many people ask this of the high-end stuff. I know exactly who supplies Centurion with their barrel blanks...and that ought to be protected information. I know who DD get their barrel blanks from as well. In fact I could say that about half a dozen top tier makers, if not more. This is not because I know people at each company, but because this information has been published, or at least sufficiently alluded to in AR circles, that it has been very easy to connect the dots.
Do I know every supplier of every part? No. But in most cases, somebody trustworthy is able to independently verify details.
You guys are taking heat because you're new, and nobody knows where your stuff is coming from.
But frankly this is part of the new paradigm I referred to earlier. This is not 2005 anymore and it's no longer enough to say, "our guns work". Consumers are used to having a lot of detailed technical information now, and if you won't give it to them, the automatic assumption will be that it is because the truth isn't pretty.
So you can blow off the requests for details if you want, but in the long run, I guarantee that this will cost you.
Level Playing Field
Ok, as you're feeling so hard done by, why don't you go here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
Take a note of all the information provided by other "reputable" manufacturers, and then post all the required information in one easy to access place. That will save your prospective customers from having to search through hundreds of posts in numerous threads.
As for the Chinese whispers comment, that is your fault for dropping subtle hits in a number of posts. Perhaps if you stuck with straightforward 'yes', 'no', 'I don't know' answers to questions, then people would not get this impression.
As misanthropist stated, if you want to play with the big boys, you have to up your game a little.
Regards.
Mark
Ok, as you're feeling so hard done by, why don't you go here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
Take a note of all the information provided by other "reputable" manufacturers, and then post all the required information in one easy to access place. That will save your prospective customers from having to search through hundreds of posts in numerous threads.
As for the Chinese whispers comment, that is your fault for dropping subtle hits in a number of posts. Perhaps if you stuck with straightforward 'yes', 'no', 'I don't know' answers to questions, then people would not get this impression.
As misanthropist stated, if you want to play with the big boys, you have to up your game a little.
Regards.
Mark
OldFrankHog
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Gatineau QC
I don't think they are trying to play with the big dogs... They just offer a quality Canadian made AR at a reasonnable price... It's people on here comparing them to big dogs...
Actually, when representatives from a company come onto a forum and start making comments along the lines of "We made our (insert NEA part of your choice here) out of/in this way because our (aerospace?) engineers told us it was better than (insert alternative industry standard part/process from Colt/BCM/DD/LMT/etc. here) then they are the ones who are asserting that they know more/better than the Tier1 manufacturers.
The problem is that the NEA guys thought that they could come on here and tell everyone that they have built the best AR in the world, and everyone would fall over themselves to buy one, after all, it is made in Canada. They get asked a few questions and suddenly they act like someone asked them for the Coke recipe.
As misanthropist stated this sort of behaviour doesn't fly any longer. If they had tried this on one of the more serious forums such as SOCNET, Lightfighter, or even M4Carbine, the only response to this type of behaviour would have been "don't let the door hit you in the vagin@ on the way out".
I think we have been pretty tolerant, but their responses haven't left me wanting to rush out and try one of their guns. I was looking at their barrels, but the lack of information makes me think again. This is usually the type of answers that companies like Oly and DPMS get away with on AR15.com.
Regards.
Mark
The problem is that the NEA guys thought that they could come on here and tell everyone that they have built the best AR in the world, and everyone would fall over themselves to buy one, after all, it is made in Canada. They get asked a few questions and suddenly they act like someone asked them for the Coke recipe.
As misanthropist stated this sort of behaviour doesn't fly any longer. If they had tried this on one of the more serious forums such as SOCNET, Lightfighter, or even M4Carbine, the only response to this type of behaviour would have been "don't let the door hit you in the vagin@ on the way out".
I think we have been pretty tolerant, but their responses haven't left me wanting to rush out and try one of their guns. I was looking at their barrels, but the lack of information makes me think again. This is usually the type of answers that companies like Oly and DPMS get away with on AR15.com.
Regards.
Mark
Um, er, I hate to be the guy to point this out, but we're talking about a gun priced to compete with Shrubmaster and Norinco. Regardless of the intent of it's manufacturer with regard to quality and features (all of which are greatly appreciated), it will largely be carted to the range in a cheesy plastic case with a trigger lock on it in the back of a minivan. MWL if you need superior features, by all means pick yourself up the gear to do the job, KAC uppers run around twice the price of an NEA. As far as the vast majority of the guys who'll shoot these rifles are concerned, they'll last a lifetime and then some.
