6br?

What else might be interesting is the 224 Valkyrie, but with a long throat. I think guys are having trouble with it in ARs because they are seating the bullets too deep into the case.

I would bet that a long throat bolt action config would be real interesting. Not sure what mags would work for it though.

Sounds like a lot of messing around. If you want to be exotic, go .22 PPC :p.

Personally, I would stick with a BR variant. Common bolt face, plenty of components, mag kits are abundant and have proven to work. Can sling a .22 projectile, especially the new heavies, at a good velocity without being stupidly overbore.
 
As far as the .224 valkyrie, I know Frank Galli loves the cartridge. There's a precision rifle trainer too (I believe that's what he is?) that's been on Franks podcast and has really good luck with the valkyrie, slinging them out to distance (~1 mile).
 
I'm interested in the Valkyrie but only for gas guns, really. Entirely to try and get similar performance with 75s in an 18.6-20" barrelled gas gun as I can getting a 26" .223 bolt gun.
 
6mm GT seems like a reasonable choice if you're wanting a mag fed 6BR. Splits the difference ballistically between the BR and the Creed
 
6mm GT seems like a reasonable choice if you're wanting a mag fed 6BR. Splits the difference ballistically between the BR and the Creed

6mm still seems to be the sweet spot for this type of shooting. A good balance between low recoil, ballistic performance and energy on target.

The 6GT is a good concept, but some are finding that it's finicky to feed, and the performance is much closer to a Dasher then it is a Creed. The performance of the cartridge was a bit oversold by GAP, but they have a tendency to do that.

The 6 GT is a great option, amongst many of the great 6mm options out there. They all have their nuances, which may sway you in one direction or another. The good news is that it's hard to pick a bad 6mm cartridge these days, the popular options in that caliber are all really good.
 
Without the hassle??? Huh?

You are saying that a 22 Creed is less hassle than a common 223 with a long throat? I'm not following you here Jerry...

You can shoot the same bullets I do, but way faster. To go way faster you are burning what 40 something grains of powder, and you think you are getting better barrel life than a 223 with 25.5 grains of Varget?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot the difference. Easy on barrels ??? huh?

I would have more respect for a 22BR actually over a 22 Creed. The 6 Creed is over bore, but 22 Creed is well ... Jelqing territory.

Do you have to run a cartridge at "11"???

There is so much you are missing about the set up... remember I was one of the first in Canada to go down the long throat heavy 223 FTR rabbit hole years back. I know exactly what it can and cannot do.

If that is the route you choose, have at it. For me, I want something that is simple... and the 22 Creedmoor is exactly that.

There are many ways to set up a cartridge... and with 7 barrels and counting, tested and developed, the 22 Creedmoor has proven its worth.. at least to me and others I shoot with.

YMMV

Jerry
 
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Putting together a 223 AI with 7 twist right now. Looking forward to see how it works. I really like my 8 twist 6BR though. Thing shoots very, very well. - dan

Biggest issue with this case and heavies is powders.... The one I had the most success with has been discontinued. I have not seen anything new that is ideal, at least for me. Accuracy wise, it will shoot very well. Performance wise... well, you will have to decide what is good and not.

For my current use, a glaring problem that no one has brought up is mags... not only to feed but also capacity. I have mucked about with mags, modifying and fixing, for a very long time and today, I just can't be bothered.

With some excellent higher cap AICS 308/creedmoor based mags, I just don't need the headache of feeding issues.

And isn't that what the 6GT was designed to resolve?????

Fun stuff this is... :)

Jerry
 
The problem with 223 for PRS is twofold. The first is the PRS bullet weight and speed limit for the 223 in Tactical Division.... Okay so go ahead and exceed it and shoot in the open division. Then you wont be going into the fight with one hand tied behind your back.

Once you decide to shoot bullets that exceed the tactical division rules, the sky opens up for the under estimated 223.

Most of you have probably seen my posts before on my 223 rig, but I'll state it again.. I'm running 88s and 90s at 2900 FPS in my 223. To get that kind of speed I had a reamer made to a seating depth of 2.625". That's way longer than any available mag for 223.

That's the next problem, but there's a easy fix. I modified the plastic inserts inside 223 Accurate Mags. Now the mags can run loads of 2.640" long. No Feed Issues!!!

Sure the small sixes probably have a lower velocity spread... too early to tell, but I don't think there's much of a payoff once you figure out the ballistic dispersion between the 223 and any 6 out to any reasonably likely hit distance.

The ranges often put targets out at 1400 yards to a mile, but those targets get so few hits that we can attribute it to either luck or someone who shoots a whole lot more rounds in a year than most of us can afford.

Dave Preston told me he shoots over 8,000 rounds per year in PRS practice. Keith Baker told me he shoots more like 30,000 rounds per year. Being realistic, few of us have the range, time and cash to feed such a habit, so if I lose to those guys, I'm happy to give it to them, and if by some miracle I beat them, well its exactly that... a miracle.

I focus on high probability shots, which depending on wind conditions are out to about 900 yards... Past that is just ego bait, not to get hung up on, unless you have a place where you can frequently practice at such distances with your PRS rig.

On that note, I was in a match a couple years ago shooting a different 223 and 3 squads went through before me, and the spotter thanked me for confirming the shot indicator light worked on the 900 yard target, because nobody in 3 squads before me hit it. He was about to send someone down range to fix it.

There's a bunch of reasons that a guy shoots well and the ammo is just a small part of it.

I stopped cheaping out this year for PRS and set up everything I can think of. Changed from a Garmin 701 to a Kestrel, bought a Kahles scope, bought a Send It electronic shooting level, a couple new shooting bags, balanced out the rifle properly, spent a ton of time shooting a tweaked out PCP air rifle in the basement using PRS stages. That really helps build stable positions. I'm running a red dot at 9:30 position so I can use it with my left eye while on the scope with my right. With all that, at 60 years old, I still don't expect to do all that well but I'll have a good time and feel good about how I do no matter what.

Guys need to stop chasing what the pros use and apply a little common sense. Factor in how well you really think you are going to do, and spend your time and money accordingly. Just be patient with your progress and realistic.

A little off topic, but have you tested D8208 in your 223? I’ve been experimenting with it and so far I’m quite pleased.
I’ve only tested up to 68gn projectiles with excellent results. It uses a reduced powder charge over Varget and leaves lots of room in the case.
 
Do you have to run a cartridge at "11"???

There is so much you are missing about the set up... remember I was one of the first in Canada to go down the long throat heavy 223 FTR rabbit hole years back. I know exactly what it can and cannot do.

If that is the route you choose, have at it. For me, I want something that is simple... and the 22 Creedmoor is exactly that.

There are many ways to set up a cartridge...

Jerry

There's nuances and trade-offs to any cartridge.

It's a matter of individuals establishing what performance features they want, and what they are willing to compromise to get there.

6mm Creedmoor, and by extension .22 creedmoor is overbore. People shooting 6mm creedmoor find themselves having to chasing lands after every ~200-300 rounds and having to replace barrels every ~800-1200 rounds. .22 Creedmoor is not going to be any better, in fact, it's going to be worse.

You could setup a .22 creedmoor to shoot slower. But you are still putting in a bunch of powder to move that .22 projectile. It's certainly not the most efficient cartridge to shoot a .22 projectile, especially if you want to lower the velocity.

Picking a cartridge is very personal, there's so much nuances to each cartridge, and everyone has different needs and desires. If a .22 Creedmoor works for you, then great. Personally, if someone wanted to go the .22 route, there's a lot of other options that I would pick over a .22 creedmoor, but that's just me. I'm just happy that we have a lot of different choices, people are free to pick whatever cartridges tickles their fancy.
 
Biggest issue with this case and heavies is powders.... The one I had the most success with has been discontinued. I have not seen anything new that is ideal, at least for me. Accuracy wise, it will shoot very well. Performance wise... well, you will have to decide what is good and not.

For my current use, a glaring problem that no one has brought up is mags... not only to feed but also capacity. I have mucked about with mags, modifying and fixing, for a very long time and today, I just can't be bothered.

With some excellent higher cap AICS 308/creedmoor based mags, I just don't need the headache of feeding issues.

And isn't that what the 6GT was designed to resolve?????

Fun stuff this is... :)

Jerry

With the correct mag setup, shooting a BR based cartridge is no problem. The mag kits out now work great, and MDT has a magazine that's designed to run the BR based cartridges, and it works very well. There's no headache involved now, in fact, it's super simple. I also recently found out that ARC mags work great with BR based cartridges, better then the .308 based cartridges they were designed for, at least out of my rifles.

While the 6 GT was designed to be that way, in reality it hasn't really worked out that way for some shooters. Some still need to go with BR mags/mag kits to get them to feed properly.
 
For those who have followed my 22CM adventure over the last 2 yrs, we have finally killed our first barrel.. it went past 2000rds. We have 4 others in various states of wear.. some were abused, some coddled, be interesting to see where the trends lead us.

I see an effective lifespan for match conditions of around 12 to 1500rds... then add whatever practise you want until it dies. I don't chase lands... but you could I guess.

Simple rule that has worked for most things combustion... there is no replacement... for displacement.

You just have to figure out the combo to get the 'burn' right.

YMMV

Jerry
 
A little off topic, but have you tested D8208 in your 223? I’ve been experimenting with it and so far I’m quite pleased.
I’ve only tested up to 68gn projectiles with excellent results. It uses a reduced powder charge over Varget and leaves lots of room in the case.

Just tested this powder in my 223 (yes, I still have a 223 and love the case). It is a fast powder and will be very peaky for use as a fuel to push heavies at a decent speed.

Varget is already too fast...

Somewhere closer to the H4350 burn rate in a 8208 kernel size would be worth a test.... sorry, ball powder doesn't work for my needs.

Jerry
 
With the correct mag setup, shooting a BR based cartridge is no problem. The mag kits out now work great, and MDT has a magazine that's designed to run the BR based cartridges, and it works very well. There's no headache involved now, in fact, it's super simple. I also recently found out that ARC mags work great with BR based cartridges, better then the .308 based cartridges they were designed for, at least out of my rifles.

While the 6 GT was designed to be that way, in reality it hasn't really worked out that way for some shooters. Some still need to go with BR mags/mag kits to get them to feed properly.

The 6BR is not just about the mag adjustment. I have one in the safe downstairs in a T3 action and the controlled feed picks it right up. I really think just about any cartridge can require a little feed lip adjustment on the mags, but if you run multiple calibers, then you could end up needing extra mags adjusted for each.
 
The 6BR is not just about the mag adjustment. I have one in the safe downstairs in a T3 action and the controlled feed picks it right up. I really think just about any cartridge can require a little feed lip adjustment on the mags, but if you run multiple calibers, then you could end up needing extra mags adjusted for each.

I agree, that any cartridge requires a little tuning of the mags to optimize feeding out of a magazine. Doesn't matter if its .223, 6.5 creedmoor or 6BR. A little mag tuning goes a long way to optimize how a rifle feeds, it's a nuance of mag fed rifles that you can't really get around.

I have 6BRA's in both controlled round feed (Mausingfield) and push feed actions (LP Fuzion), works great in both. With the equipment available today, it's no more difficult to get a mag fed 6BR setup then it is any other cartridge. ~10 years ago this would've been a completely different conversation.
 
A little off topic, but have you tested D8208 in your 223? I’ve been experimenting with it and so far I’m quite pleased.
I’ve only tested up to 68gn projectiles with excellent results. It uses a reduced powder charge over Varget and leaves lots of room in the case.

Yes I have a pound of 8208 in the reloading room and I did some testing with it with heavies, and I do like it.

I don't find it too fast at all as Jerry feels.

One of the challenges of shooting a small case capacity is the increased need for very precise loads. Since everything is smaller, a small variance has more of an effect than it would on a larger cartridge. So 8208 feeds right into this with the small kernel size. The kernels are about half the size and weight of a kernel of Varget. For that reason it occupies less space in the case and allows more weight with less volume.

Depending on your seating depth, this can come in real handy. When you start running heavy bullets, depending on your seating depth, you can start compressing the powder when seating the bullets. This creates variances in load compression and that results in variances in velocity.

So 8208 is just a little tighter in the case than Varget an measures more precisely... if you have a scale that is accurate enough to reliably measure the difference. (Which I do BTW)

I have about 20 pounds of Varget at the moment, so it's not worth moth balling that much to go with 8208 for me, but I do like the powder.

BTW, I have always felt that given a choice between 2 powders, select the one with the faster burn rate... It just burns cleaner and will tend to be more accurate after more rounds.
 
Biggest issue with this case and heavies is powders.... The one I had the most success with has been discontinued. I have not seen anything new that is ideal, at least for me. Accuracy wise, it will shoot very well. Performance wise... well, you will have to decide what is good and not.

For my current use, a glaring problem that no one has brought up is mags... not only to feed but also capacity. I have mucked about with mags, modifying and fixing, for a very long time and today, I just can't be bothered.

With some excellent higher cap AICS 308/creedmoor based mags, I just don't need the headache of feeding issues.

And isn't that what the 6GT was designed to resolve?????

Fun stuff this is... :)

Jerry

Which powder worked for You? I have a lot of old powders still. Maybe i have some in the bins. - dan
 
Which powder worked for You? I have a lot of old powders still. Maybe i have some in the bins. - dan

For the 223/90, my powder was IMR4007SSC (what I used in that video).. If you have some old stuff, dump it. The reason it was recalled is it will self destruct, leaving a heavily corrosive effect on brass, bullet, powder measure, etc.

It was my dream powder but unstable ... wish they would figure out how to reformulate.

Jerry
 
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