6br?

[kthomas]

Since you brought it up.. please do share your thoughts on the benefits of the shorter BR case.

What makes it better then a 6XC or 6mm Creedmoor?

And how you would set up the rifle to be 100% reliable... the OP should get this info don't ya think?

Jerry

I explained in my first post about tools to address reliability.

Not better than a 6xc, just different advantages. 6xc is a great round, I almost got one. Great for PRS. See my previous post on advantages to 6br/Dasher cartridges.

At the end of the day, if you went 6xc for PRS you've made an excellent choice. However, the OP asked specifically for 6br.

 

[Shawn_338]

It's decent shooting Jerry but again in the prs game you need to put twice the rounds on targets at different distances in half the time. I've seen guys come and compete in matches with a 223 in bolt and gas guns, and if that's all you have and want to shoot all the power to ya. There are way better options than the .224 bullet offerings. The 6mm is king on the hill and with good reason, as far as the whole feeding a 6br or dasher or brx or whatever from a mag lots of guys are doing it with no issues weather it's with a crf action or some sort of mag conversion. If a guy is build a new gun the simple solution is get yourself a 6mm barrel of your choice with a 8 twist have it chambered with whatever 6mm cal you want get some 105-115 match bullets and some h4350 or whatever work you load and fill your boots.

 

[Tomochan]

It's not necessarily better, but does have some advantages. Lower recoil (you are using 29-31 grains of powder vs 41), longer barrel life and you don't have to keep tuning it over the life of the barrel (less finicky), very easy to develop a load for (though so is 6xc).

The 6xc is a great round. You can push those 6mm pills very quickly and with ease out of the 6xc. If I was to go with a "big" 6mm, it would definitely be the 6xc, I think it's a great round that is very well suited to PRS.

I believe people are switching to 6br's, dashers, etc. due to low recoil, ease of load development and lack of needing to tune loads over the barrel life.

Great - thanks to you and Ryan for the education. I appreciate learning more that's for sure.

Cheers

Bob

 

[Mystic Precision]

Ummmm....

Howa mini action... in the 220 or 243 Collusion

That could be fun.

Jerry

PS, its great to see shooters sharing info without alot of drama. This sport is moving fast with methods and ideas changing all the time. FYI, BC per Berger... 22cal 90gr VLD 0.534/0.274 6mm 105gr Hybrid 0.536/ 0.275.....

Sierra rates their 90gr MK at 0.563 and that is the bullet in the 224 Valkyrie

[youtube]kbZnB-GLU9E[/youtube]

Just in case you were wondering how the knock down power of these 90's are... 500m again.

 

[Mystic Precision]

OAL shortened a bit to fit in a MDT 223 polymer mag. Add a mag extension and maybe hold 14rds.

On my FTR rig (28"), the muzzle vel was right around 2845fps and there really isn't a huge velocity loss at say 24". Much less per inch of barrel length then say a magnum.

If lowering the recoil is important, this will be less then a 6BR-105gr combo for sure. Performance wrt to ballistics really isn't much different out to 800yds and set up is a no brainer.

FYI.....
Jerry



Could be fun...

 

[redrams9]

Been following this with great interest, as I just been breaking in and doing some load development for my new 6br barrel.
Have been using the same mags, AI pattern, in my MPA chassis, that I use for my 6XC, 6SLR, 22-250, 6.5 Creedmoor, but the 6Br can be finicky to feed for sure.
My question is, where do you get either of those two kits, the Primal Rights or PVA kits in Canada? I just tried to order them thru their websites, and no shipping to Canada. Thanks...

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

Gary at Bighorn brings them in. I bet insite could get them too.

I also think the Magpul mags may work.

 

[Insite Arms]

There is something special about the 6mmBR family of cartridges!!!

We just had Kevin Shepherd with Team Accuracy International post this on Facebook after using one of our Accuracy International Pre-fits:

"Just got in my 6 Dasher barrel from Insite Arms. They definitely know how to spin up a barrel for an AI. Just went out and fireformed some brass with a random load of Varget and 110 SMKs."


https://www.facebook.com/Insite-Arms-Inc-153682108332331/

 

[max-x]

Jerry, I remember years ago you tried the 223, went thru the whole experience and wrote about it, and then for certain reasons, left the concept be as you proved it to yourself it wasn't competitive. This debate about the 22 caliber has been beaten to death again and again, and the conclusion is still the same. Does it deliver a piece of lead to its intended locale? Yes. Does it buck the wind or deliver energy downrange? No- pretty simple choice with that in mind. The 6mm is the optimal balance out to 800 yd +/- 200 yd. Beyond that, it can be used in a pinch, but folks with experience will admit the challenges that arise once even the 6mm begins to slow down.

The PRS game is about picking the right tool for the job, and at the end of the day, take absolutely any cartridge in 6mm or 6.5mm that catches your fancy and use it. Decision drivers should be ready availability of dies and components and ease of reloading. Don't go shopping around for the latest whiz bang tech until you know why you need it. The benefits of super high BC new bullets, super fast cartridges, etc etc are lost without a ton of practice and the right information package on game day.

To the OP- I had a Tikka 595 in 6BR, which feeds from the 22-250 mags very well, and it has been a great experience. You'll learn a ton with the cartridge and then know where to go next and why.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

A little sidebar here, man do those 110smks look pointy!

 

[Mystic Precision]

Jerry, I remember years ago you tried the 223, went thru the whole experience and wrote about it, and then for certain reasons, left the concept be as you proved it to yourself it wasn't competitive. This debate about the 22 caliber has been beaten to death again and again, and the conclusion is still the same. Does it deliver a piece of lead to its intended locale? Yes. Does it buck the wind or deliver energy downrange? No- pretty simple choice with that in mind. The 6mm is the optimal balance out to 800 yd +/- 200 yd. Beyond that, it can be used in a pinch, but folks with experience will admit the challenges that arise once even the 6mm begins to slow down.

The PRS game is about picking the right tool for the job, and at the end of the day, take absolutely any cartridge in 6mm or 6.5mm that catches your fancy and use it. Decision drivers should be ready availability of dies and components and ease of reloading. Don't go shopping around for the latest whiz bang tech until you know why you need it. The benefits of super high BC new bullets, super fast cartridges, etc etc are lost without a ton of practice and the right information package on game day.

To the OP- I had a Tikka 595 in 6BR, which feeds from the 22-250 mags very well, and it has been a great experience. You'll learn a ton with the cartridge and then know where to go next and why.

Hey, I am flattered you remembered... Yes, a crap ton of testing and research was done in the late 2000's. Even enjoyed collaborating with other shooters in other ICFRA countries. The small bore high BC concept was just gaining traction and the hope of using these "new" slugs to overcome recoil was the goal.

In our many different ways, we all came to the same conclusion. For mid range shooting, the 223 heavies would hold its own against the 308s and the benefits of lower recoil actually helped some shooters be more competitive. In fact, scores showed that a good driver was going to be competitive against the Open options of the day (still holds true today).

But at long range, not a hope. Why I abandoned it while prepping for the 2013 Worlds. From then till now FTR has been a long range game for me. Maybe a couple of matches out to 600m... everything else from 700m to 1000yds with now the vast majority at 1000yds.

So what was one of the popular F open options of that era... well, the 6BR and the 105 to 108gr bullets (the 115's was still a twinkle).

Concurrently, the 223/90's and 6BR/105's were hoping to change the paradigm of small high BC working as well as big heavy at long range. What we found with the 223 on the FTR side, the 6BR shooters found on the Open side.... and yes, we had the Dasher, BRX and other wildcats back then too. In fact, these wildcats were created during that era to try and overcome the limitations of the 6BR.

By the way in F class, mid range is up to 700yds (799yds if you want to be technical), long range is 800 to 1000yds and beyond.

So I get a dose of Nostalgia when I hear the same tech resurfacing.... and why I know the outcome.

If the game is mid range (heavy to shots 800 and in), and/or lighter winds, and/or for better recoil management, the 6BRs and 223's will do very well (many still use 6BR and 223s in mid range F class).

When distances (or the percentage of shots) reach out and winds start to roar, I will choose a larger bullet.

So your thoughts on "picking the right tool for the job" is most appropriate.

YMMV

Jerry

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I think the other reason that that 6br et al. is being chosen is its inherent accuracy and easy to tune nature.

Kthomas has mentioned this in his posts but it seems to be getting skipped over.

Yes you can load a heavy 22 cal bullet in a 223 to get similar ballistics but will it have the other advantages?

 

[Mystic Precision]

now that we know what we are looking for, the 223/90 IS easy to tune

And I think my video showed the potential accuracy of the combo... That was 500m, NOT 100yds. Really not sure how much more accuracy you would need.

The 6BR went through its teething pains on how to set up and load for (remember it died as a cartridge way back when)... we just figured it out years ago when Norma resurrected it (and Varget was brand new), and the Dasher has gone on to be such an amazing grouping choice in light air..

As I said initially, I have been involved with the 6BR for about 15yrs... it was my 2nd pure accuracy minded cartridge (first was the triple deuce). I have competed beside many Open shooters who have done some amazing work with it. It is one of my favorite chamberings and I have stuff here cause I really like it.

Most have forgotten that THE dominant SR BR cartridge was the Triple Deuce or 222 Rem... the grand daddy to the 223 Rem. It wasn't until the PPC family came along that the deuce was displaced. I believe one of the smallest group ever shot in competition was done with a Deuce?????

But we are currently chatting about a mag fed sport. Can you make the BR case feed? YES!!! (this was done years ago) How much will it cost? How finicky is it to keep in tune (talking rifle and mags here)? How much is the brass? Can you set up for 12 to 14rds per mag?

If this is the direction a shooter chooses, there are parts, support and knowledge to make it work. however, if the reasons shooters are going to the 6BR is to drop recoil, improve bore wear and ease headache of tuning, I would just skip the costs and set up hassles and go with a no brainer option.

Especially, when there is precious little difference ballistically between the two... and the 22cal option has even less recoil.

I would NOT recommend either if you are in a high wind, long range scenerio as I have previously indicated.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[Shelldrake]

My Holy Grail, is a mag fed 6mmBr that feeds and ejects with 99.9% reliability.

Getting it to mag feed has solutions that tend to work most of the time.
But, if you have one that fails to eject reliably,,, that is the crux.

Get both to work consistently, and you are golden.

 

[kthomas]

People spend a lot of time and energy looking for the next best thing ballistically.

If you are serious about the sport, there are plenty of good 6mm and 6.5mm options available. The best thing you can do is pick a cartridge, stick with it and get to know the ballistics well. Once you know your DOPE, it's all about the wind (ballistically speaking). Shoot in the wind. Train in the wind. Take a wind reading course. When we start taking about 6mm's and 6.5mm cartridges, we are splitting hairs. People spend too much time talking about gear and not enough on the wind.

Stick with a 6mm or 6.5mm, lots of proven options there. If you want to break new trail, you can look into a .22 option, such as a .22br, or others. Problem with that, is that you are going to need a custom reamer to throat for the new long high BC bullets, and potentially custom dies. Why go through all of that work, unless of course you want to?

OP, I hope you got the information that you need to get started on your project. That cartridge is a bit pickier than others when it comes to being mag fed, but there are lots of people that are able to make it work.

 

[Mystic Precision]

People spend a lot of time and energy looking for the next best thing ballistically.

If you are serious about the sport, there are plenty of good 6mm and 6.5mm options available. The best thing you can do is pick a cartridge, stick with it and get to know the ballistics well. Once you know your DOPE, it's all about the wind (ballistically speaking). Shoot in the wind. Train in the wind. Take a wind reading course. When we start taking about 6mm's and 6.5mm cartridges, we are splitting hairs. People spend too much time talking about gear and not enough on the wind.

Stick with a 6mm or 6.5mm, lots of proven options there. If you want to break new trail, you can look into a .22 option, such as a .22br, or others. Problem with that, is that you are going to need a custom reamer to throat for the new long high BC bullets, and potentially custom dies. Why go through all of that work, unless of course you want to?

OP, I hope you got the information that you need to get started on your project. That cartridge is a bit pickier than others when it comes to being mag fed, but there are lots of people that are able to make it work.

Very well said...

Wind reading by Miller and Cunningham... great book

Jerry

 

[kthomas]

now that we know what we are looking for, the 223/90 IS easy to tune

And I think my video showed the potential accuracy of the combo... That was 500m, NOT 100yds. Really not sure how much more accuracy you would need.

The 6BR went through its teething pains on how to set up and load for (remember it died as a cartridge way back when)... we just figured it out years ago when Norma resurrected it (and Varget was brand new), and the Dasher has gone on to be such an amazing grouping choice in light air..

As I said initially, I have been involved with the 6BR for about 15yrs... it was my 2nd pure accuracy minded cartridge (first was the triple deuce). I have competed beside many Open shooters who have done some amazing work with it. It is one of my favorite chamberings and I have stuff here cause I really like it.

Most have forgotten that THE dominant SR BR cartridge was the Triple Deuce or 222 Rem... the grand daddy to the 223 Rem. It wasn't until the PPC family came along that the deuce was displaced. I believe one of the smallest group ever shot in competition was done with a Deuce?????

But we are currently chatting about a mag fed sport. Can you make the BR case feed? YES!!! (this was done years ago) How much will it cost? How finicky is it to keep in tune (talking rifle and mags here)? How much is the brass? Can you set up for 12 to 14rds per mag?

If this is the direction a shooter chooses, there are parts, support and knowledge to make it work. however, if the reasons shooters are going to the 6BR is to drop recoil, improve bore wear and ease headache of tuning, I would just skip the costs and set up hassles and go with a no brainer option.

Especially, when there is precious little difference ballistically between the two... and the 22cal option has even less recoil.

I would NOT recommend either if you are in a high wind, long range scenerio as I have previously indicated.

YMMV.

Jerry

Get a .223 barrel for your 783 and start showing us at PRS matches why we should use a .223.

You will have a lot more influence over people in this discipline of shooting if you actually go out and shoot it. If you start doing really well with a .223, perhaps more will listen.

 

[Mystic Precision]

If the trend in PRS is to less, shooters will "discover" all that I have said all on their own..... It is the next step in the evolution towards LESS... and the set up is so much easier and cheaper. Some of this is even off the shelf (Tikka varmint have a 8 twist in their 223's for years - run 80gr VLDs. A lovely bullet and they fly really well a long ways out)

Ironically, many already have a suitable rifle as their 223 trainer. They may not have a fast enough twist nor thought about just stuffing in a big heavy slug and going out to have some fun. But these are not difficult steps to take.

From Sierra 77gr TMK, 80 to 82gr options from Hrn, Sierra, Berger, to the Nosler 85gr to Berger and Sierra 90gr's, there are plenty of easy options to choose from. 8 twist min for 82 and under... 7 twist for 90gr and under. Load to mag length, tune with Varget, AR Comp - maybe IMR4350 and H4350 for the real heavies - lit with a CCI 450 primers in Winchester brass (or whatever floats your boat)

With so many smart phone users, I am so surprised they just haven't run their numbers and gone... WOW, looks just like my ubber expensive 6BR "match" rig. Surprised you are still debating this as an option....

For ranges that only reach 600yds, I would go 8 twist, Berger 80gr VLD or 80.5gr BT, or Hrn 75 or 80gr ELDM, Sierra 77gr TMK - Varget, CCI450.. DONE. There are plenty of shooters with 223's out there.. just grab one and give it a try.

If you have a set up that does all that you want, AWESOME. Hard to change when you have so much invested.

What I have described is common knowledge and readily accessible. All shooters have to do is just give it a try. If it works, great... if it doesn't, at least you have your answer.



Me, I am really surprised that smaller has become the thing so fast.... I guess I just shoot in places too windy to even consider smaller. The flag poles are supposed to be vertical... just another typical Rattlesnake day... Southern Washington.. near Benton City, and Richland/Kennewick. An hour'ish away from Wenatchee

I wouldn't want a 6BR or 223 in these winds.

Fun fact... look at the firing point in line with the big red flag. See the pairs of boulders??? Every firing point has them so that you can weigh down your stuff from blowing away

Jerry

 

[kthomas]

Jerry you are late to the party. There are people shooting PRS with .223's with mixed success. At the last PRS match I was at, the Snipers Hide Cup in Kingsville Texas, Tim Milkovich shot it with his .223 and did quite well.

.223 is great for low recoil, but it struggles in the wind as you point out. the 6mm's have better BC bullets, and more horsepower behind them. So you get minimal recoil with better ballistics. Sure, the new Sierra SMK .22 bullets have decent BC, but I wouldn't want to design a whole rig around one specific bullet - wouldn't be good if you couldn't get that specific bullet to work. You don't gain much in recoil management going to .223 from 6mm, but the ballistic disadvantage would certainly handicap you.

You love giving advice on PRS shooting, yet you have never shot it, and your lack of knowledge on the discipline really shows. I imagine that you are providing advice on PRS to your customers as well. If you are going to continue offering your advice on this shooting discipline, at a minimum you owe it to the board members and your customers to go out and shoot a few matches to know what it is really about. Since some people consider you on here a "shooting expert", they take your advice more seriously than others, even on topics that you know little about.

PLEASE go and shoot some matches for the sake of everyone.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I think Kthomas really hit the nail on the head here.

PRS is not like other precision disciplines. There is much more variety in what one will face at a PRS match in comparison to F-Class or BR. In one stage you can shoot at many different distances or many different obstacles (at the small time SAPRL matches we have tire swings, ropes, cinder blocks, etc.) What is going to be "best" for F-class/BR is not going to work for us. If recoil was not a factor than I am sure the Magnums/SAUMS/WSMs/PRCs would rule the circuit but the extra recoil of those outweighs the ballistic advantages that those cartridges provide. If you look at the ELR matches that are held the 300NM or 30-338s are popular, these are heavy recoiling cartridges and those matches are all shot prone.

I guess I would say PRS is a compromise. Get something with enough ballistics and minimal recoil to get it to work for you (free recoil techniques are becoming very popular). I know that when I shoot my 308 in the winter I have to work a lot harder than when I shoot my 6.5mms or 6mms. Does the 6br have a huge leg up over my 6xc? Not really, but it does have better barrel life and a little less recoil with pretty good ballistics.

I agree with Kthomas that if you come out to a match (we can hold a spot for you at the 2018 SAPRL opener) you will see what we are talking about. It is a great sport and lots of fun.