my first build in Georgia was a straight 243 on a surgeon 591 and brux 7 twist at 22 inches . didn't matter what brass ya stuffed in it I would run the 105 hybrids at 3150 avg and was within a ACIS mag with binder plate removed. George G ran a 243 for a number of years before he made his Crusader and won a pile of stuff. He was 6mm before a lot of guys
6mm Creedmoor and .243 WIN, is there really a difference?
- Thread starter welder179
- Start date
Is that not reason enough to choose 6 Creedmoor instead of .243 if you're starting a build from scratch?
BenchrestJohn
CGN Regular
- Location
- Maple Ridge, BC
Reasonable price?????????????????????????
BenchrestJohn
CGN Regular
- Location
- Maple Ridge, BC
BenchrestJohn
CGN Regular
- Location
- Maple Ridge, BC
Rugbydave, please read his question again and then try to answer it, if you don't want to be
ifferent"
Ammo and rifles yes, for the non-custom non-reloading crowd you can get factory rifles in 6cm and match-ish grade ammo cheaper then other offerings.
Lapua and Norma are pricey factory ammo, and there were rifles you could pick up for $1000.
Not saying the ammo and rifles are the cats ass, just that options are limited in other chamberings for these things.
FTR I don't shoot or care about PRS, my long range rifle is a 7mm mag lol. I prefer slow fire, small groups, out as far as I can.
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Because I got a good deal on a LH barrelled action, my current comp/target rifle is a 243. Once the barrel is toast it'll be a 6CM. The Creed has too many small advantages to ignore. Small advantages add up.
Rugbydave, please read his question again and then try to answer it, if you don't want to be
He asked if there was any "scientific research" pitting 2 identical rifles (albeit one in 6 creed and one in .243) against each other to prove the creed was "better". To my knowledge there isn't any such test. I, like many others in this thread, offered the reasons why the 6 creed is "better" for the application of magazine-fed precision long range rifles (all other components other than the chamber and brass being the same) than the .243. Maybe work on your reading comprehension?
Yeah, that's why I said "assuming all other components are the same". If you find a screaming deal on a fast-twist .243 (or in your case a harder to find lefty rifle) it makes perfect sense.
Apples to apples, 2.8" OAL, 108gr Hornady ELD, 60k psi chamber pressure
Code:
Cartridge : .243 Win.
Bullet : .243, 108, Hornady ELD-M 24561
Useable Case Capaci: 48.721 grain H2O = 3.163 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
145 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 95.7 46.2 2.99 3115 100.0 60000 12296 1.138 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 98.7 47.1 3.05 3055 95.8 60000 12711 1.162 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 98.6 44.8 2.90 3047 98.8 60000 12221 1.143 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Magnum 99.0 48.4 3.14 3040 99.3 60000 11775 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 86.4 40.7 2.64 3030 100.0 60000 10927 1.144 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-23 100.8 44.3 2.87 3029 100.0 60000 11047 1.148 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-19 95.6 42.9 2.78 3004 98.7 60000 11649 1.146 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-16 92.4 40.4 2.62 3003 100.0 60000 10794 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Hunter 91.2 42.3 2.74 3001 99.9 60000 11296 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414 86.1 40.9 2.65 2996 99.6 60000 11327 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 760 86.1 40.9 2.65 2996 99.6 60000 11327 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831 SC 97.1 44.1 2.86 2979 96.9 60000 11485 1.143 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 11 84.8 39.3 2.55 2961 100.0 60000 10383 1.159 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4831 95.0 40.9 2.65 2960 100.0 60000 10559 1.165 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4350 93.4 41.1 2.66 2946 99.2 60000 10779 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4955 Enduron 98.3 43.0 2.78 2945 97.1 60000 11144 1.150 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4350 91.7 41.0 2.65 2945 99.3 60000 10757 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4451 Enduron 88.1 39.1 2.53 2933 99.5 60000 10599 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon VARGET 85.9 37.3 2.42 2919 100.0 60000 9993 1.160 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Code:
Cartridge : 6 mm Creedmoor
Bullet : .243, 108, Hornady ELD-M 24561
Useable Case Capaci: 48.881 grain H2O = 3.174 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
141 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 96.6 46.8 3.03 3147 100.0 60000 12469 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 98.3 45.5 2.95 3092 97.5 60000 12422 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 99.6 47.7 3.09 3083 95.5 60000 12823 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 99.4 45.3 2.93 3075 98.6 60000 12345 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 99.7 49.0 3.17 3067 99.1 60000 11905 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 87.2 41.2 2.67 3060 100.0 60000 11058 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 101.7 44.8 2.90 3059 100.0 60000 11190 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 93.1 40.9 2.65 3031 100.0 60000 10921 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 96.3 43.4 2.81 3030 98.4 60000 11755 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 91.9 42.8 2.77 3027 99.8 60000 11419 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 86.8 41.4 2.68 3022 99.5 60000 11441 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 86.8 41.4 2.68 3022 99.5 60000 11441 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 97.8 44.6 2.89 3004 96.6 60000 11576 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 95.7 41.3 2.68 2987 100.0 60000 10683 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 94.1 41.5 2.69 2970 99.1 60000 10876 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 83.3 37.5 2.43 2970 100.0 60000 10399 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 92.3 41.4 2.68 2969 99.1 60000 10855 1.144 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 93.7 40.9 2.65 2969 100.0 60000 10059 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron 99.0 43.4 2.81 2968 96.8 60000 11224 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron 88.7 39.5 2.56 2956 99.4 60000 10690 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 86.4 37.7 2.44 2943 100.0 60000 10090 1.150 ! Near Maximum !Benchrest shooters have done all the work for us, just look at what was the most accurate cartridges:
* before the 80s, 222 Rem basically a scaled down 30-06
* after the 80s, 6mm PPC basically of super-optimized 220 Russian necked-up to 6mm
You should simply read about why 6mm PPC is so good and why similarly designed cartridges like 6.5 Lapua, 300 WSM, 6mm Creedmoor and 6.5 Creedmoor are simply better shooting cartridges.
(One important point, a 308 Win is a 30-06 optimized for modern propellant powder and functioning in automatic mechanism - it feed well, hit hard at medium range and is very efficient)
As for the difference between 6x47 Lapua and 6mm Creedmore, there are almost none from a design and performance point of vue.
Final comment, the 6.5x47 Lapua is almost unbeatable at 300m shooting and is almost as accurate as the 6mm PPC and 6mm BR.
There are many considerations but these 6mm cartridges (6mm PPC, 6mm BR, 6mm XC, 6x47 Lapua and 6mm Creedmore) are the low-recoil winners.
6mm XC, 6x47 Lapua and 6mm Creedmore feed well from a box magazine and they are all excellent.
243 Win is a great cartridge but suffers from the same problems as 270 Win: to much case capacity for given bullet weight because of too low standard rifle twist.
(270 Win is 1-10", 243 Win is 1-9 while 280 Rem is 1-9" , 6mm Creedmore is 1-8" allowing to use higher sectional density, high BC bullets better at long range).
Alex
US shooter must be John Whidden. At least a 5 time long range champion at Camp Perry using 243 win.
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017...whidden-uses-243-win-for-long-range-shooting/
From the article.
Well that's a close comparison but there's still a difference in the charge weight from one load to another so of course velocities are different. And on the other side of the coin it states that the 243 are over pressurized, this is based off SAMMI data but let's face it there no reason a heavy barrel can't take a round with more pressure. Look at the IPSC crowd and guys loading 9mm to make major power factor, so it's not unusual for a handloader to go beyond recommend load data. I'm just convinced that given the same charge data and same barrel length/twist that it would seem like velocities should be the exact same. So the question starts to become more along the line of, is there something about the design of the Creedmoor cartridge that has improved consistency in velocities, or proven barrel life. I will say that according to this data you provided it will take a little bit more pressure to match the velocity so this does suggest that there is something with the design that creates a more efficient burn
No 6mm in this class has a good barrel life whatever what Kool-Aid being served.
The only advantage of 6 creed is:
- Factory ammo
- reduced case grow
- slightly easier to tune/find/hold accuracy/velocity nodes due to longer neck
- slightly easier to fit in a mag but that not that much of an issue until you want to run 110 or 115 dtacs in a 243.
If you want to speak about better efficiency then look at the 6x47L that produce roughly the same speed as my 6 creed(+- 100 fps apart in real world not QL ####)
the cartridges are different, so powder charges/speeds will be slightly different. A 6BR and 240 Weatherby use different powder charges too.
You can run a 243 to same pressures as 6mm Creedmoor, the above chart was run at 60,000psi, the SAAMI spec for the 6cm is 65,000psi and the 243 is 60,191psi. Any load in QL that's close to max PSI will be labeled as Dangerous Do Not Use, to get your attention
What Kevin said.
At the end of the day, these endless "what caliber is better" debates are pretty retarded and have been beat to death. If you want to figure out which is "better" you first need some kind of parameters for your use. Most of these discussions are looking at suitability for a magazine fed rifle within the context of shooting steel matches (PRS/NRL etc) where there is a 3200fps speed limit. So in the "big" 6mms (ie not BR variants) you have(in somewhat common usage) .243, .243AI, 6 Creedmoor, 6x47L, 6XC, 6SLR, 6 Comp Match. They all have ####ty barrel life, somewhere around 1500-2000rds (if you're lucky) and similar case capacities. There's really no sense in going with the .243AI, 6SLR or Comp Match as they all require at least fire forming to increase case capacity when you don't need any extra case capacity to push the 110s or 115s pretty much to max speeds with the Creedmoor, XC or X47L. We've already been over why the Creedmoor (and now the XC and x47L) are "better" than the .243 (which basically comes down to easier to load to fit in a mag length with the longer 110s and 115s). That leaves you with the Creedmoor, x47L and XC, all of which are more similar than different. There's great brass available for all, the only thing is you have to neck down 6.5x47L brass to make 6x47L whereas you can buy factory brass for the other 2. Their performance and barrel life will be the same. That's the long and the short of it, pick your poison.
If you want to go 6mm, understand the limitations and pros of the General family as a whole and just pick one that you can get components for and that will make you happy. Once you have it, get out and shoot it, learn the ballistics and enjoy the low recoil. Hahaha.
That said, pretty sure 6CM and 243 will do the same thing. I would personally pick 6CM becuase in my opinion, you get roughly the same performance (negligible difference) for less powder.
You could probably find a similar discussion that would have some parallels between 260 and 6.5CM
That said, pretty sure 6CM and 243 will do the same thing. I would personally pick 6CM becuase in my opinion, you get roughly the same performance (negligible difference) for less powder.
You could probably find a similar discussion that would have some parallels between 260 and 6.5CM
