Well, I asked the question a while ago, and I got mixed answers. i emailed someone who seemed to know his c96's and posed that question. interesting read:
The 7,62x25 Tokarev Versus the 7,63x25 Mauser
Is 7,62x25 the same cartridge as 30 Mauser?
The short answer is:
"Yes, but it may not be safe to fire in a C96 Mauser".
Don't you just love clear and unambiguous answers? The long answer requires a little history...
The Imperial Russians fell in love with both the 7.63 Mauser cartridge (aka .30 Mauser) and the Mauser Military Pistol, and were one of Mauser's best customers for same. The October Revolution did not change this fondness for the C96 and the 7.63 Mauser cartridge (it is said a C96 was one of the firearms used in the murder of the Tzar and the Royal Family), and both pistol and cartridge remained in general use in the early years of Communist rule.
In the late 1920's, the Soviets made the decision to replace the standard issue Model 1895 Nagant revolver with a self-loading pistol. A requirement for this new pistol was that it be chambered for the 7.63 Mauser cartridge and the pistol selected in the 1928-1929 pistol trials was the Tokarev pistol.
Upon adoption, Tokarev's pistol was designated the "TT-30" and its cartridge was designated the "7.62 Tokarev Pistol". The TT-30 design was modified in the 1931-1932 time frame to simplify production, and this modified pistol was designated the "TT-33".
This is a subject covered by Fred Datig in his “Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929 - 1953”.Here is a quotation from page 131 that may be of some interest, “As has been mentioned in Chapter Four, to quote, ‘in 1929, the designers Korovin and Prilutskiy converted (redesigned) their (prototype) pistols to the 7.62mm caliber caliber cartridge (after) the Artillery Committee proposed developing them for the 7.63mm caliber Mauser (pistol cartridge …”
“Except for that which one may consider manufacturing tolerances, the 7.62 mm Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartridges are relatively identical and interchangeable.”
This has also been covered in Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook” thusly:
“7.62 x 25 mm
Synonym. 7.62 mm Tokarev; 7.62 Soviet pistol; Russian; 0.30 Mauser; 7.63 x 25mm
Armament
Tokarev TT33 automatic pistol; various obsolete Soviet sub-machine guns (PPD, PPSH, PPS); Chinese Type 85sub-machine gun and Type 80 pistol. Most pistols and steel sub-machine guns chambered for the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge will probably operate satisfactorily with this round and vice versa.
Development
This cartridge actually began life as the 7.63 mm Mauser automatic pistol cartridge. It was taken into use by the Russian forces in the early 1900s and the pistol remained popular with the Bolshevik armies, one model being produced specifically for the Soviet As a result manufacture of the Mauser cartridge began in Russia, and when in due course the Tokarev automatic pistol was developed, it was designed around the Mauser cartridge. For manufacturing convenience the barrel of the Tokarev was 7.62 mm calibre, thus the Soviet cartridge lost its Mauser designation and became known as the 7.62 mm Tokarev. The dimensional differences between the Soviet round and the original Mauser specifications are minute and largely due to the manufacturing processes. It can therefore be expected that any weapon originally using the Mauser cartridge will work with the Soviet pattern and vice versa. This cartridge has been manufactured in China and various countries of the former Warsaw Pact, but always to the Soviet specification. The Chinese pattern (below) is stated to be for the automatic pistols Type 54 sub-machine guns and Type 80 and for the Type 85 light sub-machinegun. Like the 7.63 x 25 mm cartridge from which derived, the 7.62 x 25 mm performs very well against 7.62 soft body armour and light metal, such as automobile bodies.
Description
The case is rimless and bottlenecked. The standard ball bullet is round-nosed and lead cored with a steel jacket.
Specifications Ball Type P
Round length: 34.56 mm
Round weight (nominal)- 10.65 g
Case length: 25.14 mm
Rim diameter: 9.91 mm
Bullet diameter, 7.82 mm
Bullet weight: 5.57 g
Muzzle velocity: 505 m/s
Muzzle energy: 709 J
Abridged ballistic table: 7.62mm Tokarev, 5.57g ball
Range Velocity Energy
0 m 505 M/S 709 J
10m 500 M/8 695 J
25m 496 mls 684 J
50 m 485 m/s 654 J”
So the answer is "yes, the 7.63 Mauser and the 7,62x25 are the same cartridge".
But that's isn't the end of the story. While the 7.63 Mauser and the 7,62x25 cartridge are the same cartridge, it may *not* be safe to fire any kind of milsurp 7,62x25 in a C96 and it may *not* be safe to fire all kinds of 7,62x25 ammunition in a Tokarev pistol. Here is why.
Eastern European Military 7,62x25
Most Eastern European military 7,62x25 is loaded to approximately the same pressures as the 7.63 Mauser cartridge and *may* be safe to fire in a C96 which is in sound mechanical shape. But there are several problems. Chief among these problems is determining if a specific C96 is sound. I highly recommend that anyone who has a C96 which they wish to fire have it checked out, and if problems are found have them corrected, or hang the pistol over the mantle.
Even if a C96 is in shootable shape, there are potential problems with milsurp ammunition. Ammunition may be sold as surplus for a number of reasons. 7,62x25 ammunition of recent manufacture which has been sold just because it was in excess of current or anticipated need is generally fine to fire in a C96. But ammunition which has been sold because it was overage or had become unreliable due to improper storage should *not* be considered safe to shoot in any firearm, especially a C96. Such ammunition may generate pressures that are excessive in any handgun. We have had reports of Eastern European milsurp 7,62x25 ammunition developing muzzle velocities well in excess of what one would normally expect from 7,62x25 (with some reported muzzle velocities in excess of 1600 fps!). This is a strong indicator this ammunition is unsafe to fire, regardless of the firearm.
So the problem here is that it is usually impossible to tell *why* ammunition was sold off. It is possible to make an educated guess at why a specific lot of ammunition was sold as milsurp by considering the country of origin and the head stamp date. But remember that this is, at best, a guess. My best advice is don't shoot any ammunition in any pistol if you have any doubts about the condition of either.
Czech 7,62x25 ammunition
The Czech ammunition may be a special case. It is reported In Ezell’s “Small Arms of the World” that the Czech “M48” ammunition loaded specifically for the Vz-52 pistol was “20% hotter” than the standard Soviet M30 7,62x25. It is not known how much of this ammunition may have been produced, whether all Czech 7,62x25 ammunition made between 1952 and 1955 was loaded to this higher pressure, or what all of the head stamps applied to this ammunition may be.
It’s not even known for sure that any Czech M48 ammunition actually exists. The only M48 to which I can find a reference in Czech sources is an experimental 9 m/m Luger cartridge, intended for use in a pistol that never advanced past the prototype stage. In the absence of solid information, use of Czech ammunition in any pistol other than the Czech Vz-52 is probably a bad idea.
ChiCom 7,62x25 ammunition
The ChiCom 7,62x25 ammunition is a little different story. The vast majority of the ammunition is not "military surplus" in the normal sense of the phrase. Rather it is current military production ammunition which has been sold commercially for hard currency. As such, it would usually be considered safe to fire in any pistol chambered for the 7,62x25 or the 7.63 Mauser, providing that the pistol in question was in sound mechanical condition.
But there is a fly in this ointment too. I have found the ChiCom 7,62x25 to be inconsistent in terms of recoil and muzzle blast (and by implication, chamber pressure). The vast majority of the rounds of Chicom 7,62x25 I've fired were indistinguishable from 7.63 Mauser. But every once in a while there will be a round with an unusually large muzzle flash and a perceptibly higher felt recoil. If this muzzle flash/felt recoil do indicate a higher pressure, these rounds might well damage a C96.
Mentor Arms (which did a lot of C96 rehab work) used the Chicom ammunition to test fire their pistols and recommended its use up until a year or two before they closed shop. They stopped doing so when they began receiving pistols sent in for repair which had been damaged by the Chicom ammunition. Mentor then recommended that ChiCom ammunition *not* be used in C96’s.
That's the story, and I'm sorry to be so long winded. The bottom line to all of this comes in 3 parts:
1) the 7.63 Mauser and the 7,62x25 cartridges may be considered interchangeable,
2) while most Eastern European military 7,62x25 is suitable for use in a C96 Mauser, some is not, and
3) it can be next to impossible to tell the difference between which 7,62x25 ammunition is suitable for the C96 and which is not.
My bottom line recommendation is to fire only ammunition which is head stamped "7,63 Mauser" or ".30 Mauser" in a C96 chambered for the 7.63 Mauser. And even then use caution, as there is a lot of very old 7,63 Mauser out there. After all, it’s been in production for over 100 years
If anyone is interested, the following sources provide information on either/both the TT pistols and the 7,62x25’s cartridge:
"Small Arms of the World", Ezell
"Pistols of the World", Ezell
“Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929-1953”, Fred Datig
Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook”
C.I.P (Commission International Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes a Feu portatives) ammunition manufacturing standards
Aren’t you glad we all took up the simple hobby of C&R firearms <wry smile>?
Now to get my bloody restricted
The 7,62x25 Tokarev Versus the 7,63x25 Mauser
Is 7,62x25 the same cartridge as 30 Mauser?
The short answer is:
"Yes, but it may not be safe to fire in a C96 Mauser".
Don't you just love clear and unambiguous answers? The long answer requires a little history...
The Imperial Russians fell in love with both the 7.63 Mauser cartridge (aka .30 Mauser) and the Mauser Military Pistol, and were one of Mauser's best customers for same. The October Revolution did not change this fondness for the C96 and the 7.63 Mauser cartridge (it is said a C96 was one of the firearms used in the murder of the Tzar and the Royal Family), and both pistol and cartridge remained in general use in the early years of Communist rule.
In the late 1920's, the Soviets made the decision to replace the standard issue Model 1895 Nagant revolver with a self-loading pistol. A requirement for this new pistol was that it be chambered for the 7.63 Mauser cartridge and the pistol selected in the 1928-1929 pistol trials was the Tokarev pistol.
Upon adoption, Tokarev's pistol was designated the "TT-30" and its cartridge was designated the "7.62 Tokarev Pistol". The TT-30 design was modified in the 1931-1932 time frame to simplify production, and this modified pistol was designated the "TT-33".
This is a subject covered by Fred Datig in his “Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929 - 1953”.Here is a quotation from page 131 that may be of some interest, “As has been mentioned in Chapter Four, to quote, ‘in 1929, the designers Korovin and Prilutskiy converted (redesigned) their (prototype) pistols to the 7.62mm caliber caliber cartridge (after) the Artillery Committee proposed developing them for the 7.63mm caliber Mauser (pistol cartridge …”
“Except for that which one may consider manufacturing tolerances, the 7.62 mm Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartridges are relatively identical and interchangeable.”
This has also been covered in Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook” thusly:
“7.62 x 25 mm
Synonym. 7.62 mm Tokarev; 7.62 Soviet pistol; Russian; 0.30 Mauser; 7.63 x 25mm
Armament
Tokarev TT33 automatic pistol; various obsolete Soviet sub-machine guns (PPD, PPSH, PPS); Chinese Type 85sub-machine gun and Type 80 pistol. Most pistols and steel sub-machine guns chambered for the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge will probably operate satisfactorily with this round and vice versa.
Development
This cartridge actually began life as the 7.63 mm Mauser automatic pistol cartridge. It was taken into use by the Russian forces in the early 1900s and the pistol remained popular with the Bolshevik armies, one model being produced specifically for the Soviet As a result manufacture of the Mauser cartridge began in Russia, and when in due course the Tokarev automatic pistol was developed, it was designed around the Mauser cartridge. For manufacturing convenience the barrel of the Tokarev was 7.62 mm calibre, thus the Soviet cartridge lost its Mauser designation and became known as the 7.62 mm Tokarev. The dimensional differences between the Soviet round and the original Mauser specifications are minute and largely due to the manufacturing processes. It can therefore be expected that any weapon originally using the Mauser cartridge will work with the Soviet pattern and vice versa. This cartridge has been manufactured in China and various countries of the former Warsaw Pact, but always to the Soviet specification. The Chinese pattern (below) is stated to be for the automatic pistols Type 54 sub-machine guns and Type 80 and for the Type 85 light sub-machinegun. Like the 7.63 x 25 mm cartridge from which derived, the 7.62 x 25 mm performs very well against 7.62 soft body armour and light metal, such as automobile bodies.
Description
The case is rimless and bottlenecked. The standard ball bullet is round-nosed and lead cored with a steel jacket.
Specifications Ball Type P
Round length: 34.56 mm
Round weight (nominal)- 10.65 g
Case length: 25.14 mm
Rim diameter: 9.91 mm
Bullet diameter, 7.82 mm
Bullet weight: 5.57 g
Muzzle velocity: 505 m/s
Muzzle energy: 709 J
Abridged ballistic table: 7.62mm Tokarev, 5.57g ball
Range Velocity Energy
0 m 505 M/S 709 J
10m 500 M/8 695 J
25m 496 mls 684 J
50 m 485 m/s 654 J”
So the answer is "yes, the 7.63 Mauser and the 7,62x25 are the same cartridge".
But that's isn't the end of the story. While the 7.63 Mauser and the 7,62x25 cartridge are the same cartridge, it may *not* be safe to fire any kind of milsurp 7,62x25 in a C96 and it may *not* be safe to fire all kinds of 7,62x25 ammunition in a Tokarev pistol. Here is why.
Eastern European Military 7,62x25
Most Eastern European military 7,62x25 is loaded to approximately the same pressures as the 7.63 Mauser cartridge and *may* be safe to fire in a C96 which is in sound mechanical shape. But there are several problems. Chief among these problems is determining if a specific C96 is sound. I highly recommend that anyone who has a C96 which they wish to fire have it checked out, and if problems are found have them corrected, or hang the pistol over the mantle.
Even if a C96 is in shootable shape, there are potential problems with milsurp ammunition. Ammunition may be sold as surplus for a number of reasons. 7,62x25 ammunition of recent manufacture which has been sold just because it was in excess of current or anticipated need is generally fine to fire in a C96. But ammunition which has been sold because it was overage or had become unreliable due to improper storage should *not* be considered safe to shoot in any firearm, especially a C96. Such ammunition may generate pressures that are excessive in any handgun. We have had reports of Eastern European milsurp 7,62x25 ammunition developing muzzle velocities well in excess of what one would normally expect from 7,62x25 (with some reported muzzle velocities in excess of 1600 fps!). This is a strong indicator this ammunition is unsafe to fire, regardless of the firearm.
So the problem here is that it is usually impossible to tell *why* ammunition was sold off. It is possible to make an educated guess at why a specific lot of ammunition was sold as milsurp by considering the country of origin and the head stamp date. But remember that this is, at best, a guess. My best advice is don't shoot any ammunition in any pistol if you have any doubts about the condition of either.
Czech 7,62x25 ammunition
The Czech ammunition may be a special case. It is reported In Ezell’s “Small Arms of the World” that the Czech “M48” ammunition loaded specifically for the Vz-52 pistol was “20% hotter” than the standard Soviet M30 7,62x25. It is not known how much of this ammunition may have been produced, whether all Czech 7,62x25 ammunition made between 1952 and 1955 was loaded to this higher pressure, or what all of the head stamps applied to this ammunition may be.
It’s not even known for sure that any Czech M48 ammunition actually exists. The only M48 to which I can find a reference in Czech sources is an experimental 9 m/m Luger cartridge, intended for use in a pistol that never advanced past the prototype stage. In the absence of solid information, use of Czech ammunition in any pistol other than the Czech Vz-52 is probably a bad idea.
ChiCom 7,62x25 ammunition
The ChiCom 7,62x25 ammunition is a little different story. The vast majority of the ammunition is not "military surplus" in the normal sense of the phrase. Rather it is current military production ammunition which has been sold commercially for hard currency. As such, it would usually be considered safe to fire in any pistol chambered for the 7,62x25 or the 7.63 Mauser, providing that the pistol in question was in sound mechanical condition.
But there is a fly in this ointment too. I have found the ChiCom 7,62x25 to be inconsistent in terms of recoil and muzzle blast (and by implication, chamber pressure). The vast majority of the rounds of Chicom 7,62x25 I've fired were indistinguishable from 7.63 Mauser. But every once in a while there will be a round with an unusually large muzzle flash and a perceptibly higher felt recoil. If this muzzle flash/felt recoil do indicate a higher pressure, these rounds might well damage a C96.
Mentor Arms (which did a lot of C96 rehab work) used the Chicom ammunition to test fire their pistols and recommended its use up until a year or two before they closed shop. They stopped doing so when they began receiving pistols sent in for repair which had been damaged by the Chicom ammunition. Mentor then recommended that ChiCom ammunition *not* be used in C96’s.
That's the story, and I'm sorry to be so long winded. The bottom line to all of this comes in 3 parts:
1) the 7.63 Mauser and the 7,62x25 cartridges may be considered interchangeable,
2) while most Eastern European military 7,62x25 is suitable for use in a C96 Mauser, some is not, and
3) it can be next to impossible to tell the difference between which 7,62x25 ammunition is suitable for the C96 and which is not.
My bottom line recommendation is to fire only ammunition which is head stamped "7,63 Mauser" or ".30 Mauser" in a C96 chambered for the 7.63 Mauser. And even then use caution, as there is a lot of very old 7,63 Mauser out there. After all, it’s been in production for over 100 years
If anyone is interested, the following sources provide information on either/both the TT pistols and the 7,62x25’s cartridge:
"Small Arms of the World", Ezell
"Pistols of the World", Ezell
“Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929-1953”, Fred Datig
Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook”
C.I.P (Commission International Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes a Feu portatives) ammunition manufacturing standards
Aren’t you glad we all took up the simple hobby of C&R firearms <wry smile>?
Now to get my bloody restricted
