7.62x39 Green Tip

What is it about a tracer round that makes it explosive SVP?
You mean besides the fact the Explosives Regulations say so? The tracer element is a pyrotechnic composition of a metallic peroxide and metal fuel. Something does not have to "explode" to meet the definition of an explosive.

did you read the links above?
I don't think these guys are smart enough to understand them.

Funny, I called it that we'd have ostrich-like idiots denying the facts and immediately after my post, you've got two of them. Now all we need is an NRCAN rager and the thread will be complete.
 
CanAm and I have both provided facts based on published law, so I figure it has to be either denial or cognitive impairment...
 
Whenever i see a thread on CGN with the word "tracer" somewhere in it, i know 2 things will happen
1) There will be posters saying they are legal.
2) There will be posts by AK arguing the contarary and educating the public on the explosives act.
It smells like somebody has an agenda.

Until AK first posted about the regs, i dont recall a single post on CGN ever mentioning it.
The current explosive regs that specifically exclude tracers from the "safety cartridge" definition have been in place for a long time, YET there hasnt been a single case (to the best of my knowledge) of an individual in Canada being charged under the act. This is likely to change soon, thanks to AK's efforts.
There is an abundance of "astute cops" that frequent these boards that will gladly use the information provided by AK to charge unsuspecting, uninformed gun owners that might've purchased some tracers at a gun show.
So AK, if you think you're doing the community a favor, think again...
 
My thought on some answers that seem quite out to lunch (and this thread brings it home)...lots of guys are looking at this forum from their "smart" phones...they read the thread title but only see the last post. Being too lazy to scroll through the thread they only read the last post and then post their crap based off that. Hence we see lots of repetition of questions in threads...or complete out in left field answers when the correct answer has already been posted. Just my $0.02 worth (flame away! ;)).
 
Whenever i see a thread on CGN with the word "tracer" somewhere in it, i know 2 things will happen
1) There will be posters saying they are legal.
2) There will be posts by AK arguing the contarary and educating the public on the explosives act.
It smells like somebody has an agenda.

Until AK first posted about the regs, i dont recall a single post on CGN ever mentioning it.
The current explosive regs that specifically exclude tracers from the "safety cartridge" definition have been in place for a long time, YET there hasnt been a single case (to the best of my knowledge) of an individual in Canada being charged under the act. This is likely to change soon, thanks to AK's efforts.
There is an abundance of "astute cops" that frequent these boards that will gladly use the information provided by AK to charge unsuspecting, uninformed gun owners that might've purchased some tracers at a gun show.
So AK, if you think you're doing the community a favor, think again...
Heaven forbid that people be armed with facts instead of mistruths and disinformation. Isn't that what this entire community spends millions of dollars fighting against? How ironic. Don't forget to throw CanAm under the bus with me while you're at it.

When someone posts "tracers are legal", that is false and could potentially get someone in trouble. I suppose since I know better I should just say nothing because breaking this law is "no big deal" right? No one's ever been charged with it so it must be okay, right? Or perhaps someone DID get charged and you don't know about it. There's more going through the court system than what your local newspaper prints.

The whole idea here is to NOT have "unsuspecting, uninformed gun owners". Information is our greatest asset yet you seem content to sweep this issue under the rug, hoping that no one gets caught. That's a pretty ignorant policy if you ask me, given what someone stands to lose.

Rather than shooting the messenger perhaps you should direct your attitude towards your legislators to have the law amended. I didn't write it.
 
AK...again you swim in the murky waters of subjective statement attempting to clarify with your arrogance...Hey Mr. smartie pants, has anyone been charged with "your interpretation" of the explosives act where tracer rounds are concerned or not?...if not..."its better to be quite and have them think you're a fool, than to open ones mouth and prove them right."
 
I don't know about "AK" displaying any type of arrogance. He's been helpful. I started this thread with the hopes of finding legitimate information regarding tracers. I think it's important that the truth is posted here so that anyone like me who isn't sure about the legality of tracers can avoid the possibility of getting in crap with the law. I have a family and no criminal record, and I intend to keep it that way. With "AK"s educated reply, we know that it's not likely that you would get into much trouble, but I like to have the option of avoiding a ticket or being arrested because of my ignorance on the matter. It's good to be informed, and I appreciate that "AK" and CanAM have helped me out here.

Thanks again for all your replies.
 
I don't know about "AK" displaying any type of arrogance. He's been helpful. I started this thread with the hopes of finding legitimate information regarding tracers. I think it's important that the truth is posted here so that anyone like me who isn't sure about the legality of tracers can avoid the possibility of getting in crap with the law. I have a family and no criminal record, and I intend to keep it that way. With "AK"s educated reply, we know that it's not likely that you would get into much trouble, but I like to have the option of avoiding a ticket or being arrested because of my ignorance on the matter. It's good to be informed, and I appreciate that "AK" and CanAM have helped me out here.

Thanks again for all your replies.


Hi
I won't go in to legality of this ammo.
However I will comment on its performance.
The ammo comes in packs of 20 rds. its made by BXN and no stripper clips. When you shoot it at ranges less than 150 meters you have no visible effect and its like shooting regular ammo. Beyond 150 meters you can clearly see red tracer. As projectile hits the target it may still glow for some time on the ground or in the berm/target.
Just to be on the safe side its best to shoot this ammo during winter or wet weather when there is less of combustible material around. Low light or sombre conditions help with visual effect of this ammo.
Other than that its nothing special and when i hear people selling this ammo for 1$+ a round I start laughing.
So if your range is less than 150 meters, just buy and shoot regular ammo don't waste your money.
 
Thanks for the info, gewehr. I really have no use for tracers, so I would've prefered the regular rounds. People are crazy if they're asking that kind of money for these things. I got 100rd bundle for $25.
 
After reading all through this post, I realize there will aways be an expert wannabe. Who that is, is up to them.
I almost feel sorry for those types who quote the law and live by it... without realizing the vagueness of law.

Ive used 7.62 x 39 green tip tracers at the range during day light and they arent that bright to see by the shooter, But most on lookers (spotters) will see where they hit.
Ive also shot some in pitch black darkness, streight up in the air in the middle of now here in northern Ontario... and they are very green when fired. They ignite about 100 yds past the muzzle, and burn till about 500 yards plus.

When I go fishing up north the SKS is with me and so are a few tracers... just in case I need them.:)
 
I traded 4000rds of norc non corrosive for 4000rds of the green tip tracers about 3 yrs ago. Last spring I sold 50 boxes for $16/box at our 2 day show, stuff just flew off the table. Brought another 30 boxes the next day and sold those for $20/box, gone in the first hour. Still have 1500rds. Most people just bought a couple of boxes just to have. No doubt if I decide to sell more I'll set the price at $25/box, don't really care if it sells and I know there's not much left around.
 
From this site


http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/minerals-metals/explosives/4118#srs-ede31

3.1 Products Not Authorized in Canada

Certain cartridges and accessories will not be authorized. For example, if a cartridge (or ammunition) is included in the Criminal Code regulations under SOR/98-462 “Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted,” the request will be addressed accordingly.

The following types of cartridges and accessories will not be authorized for commercial purposes:
cartridges and projectiles that are prohibited under the Criminal Code (R.S., c.C-34, s.1.); this includes any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a commonly available semi-automatic handgun or revolver and that is manufactured or assembled with a projectile that is designed, manufactured, or altered so as to be capable of penetrating body armour; for example:
* a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
* a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
* ammunition that includes a tracer, an incendiary composition, a high explosive or other similar military-type ammunition;

I don't get the for commercial use. Does this exclude hobby / collection / sporting ?
 
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After reading all through this post, I realize there will aways be an expert wannabe. Who that is, is up to them.
I almost feel sorry for those types who quote the law and live by it... without realizing the vagueness of law.
I've been an expert witness in federal court, an adviser to explosives manufacturers, and a consultant to the US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory. What are your credentials?
 
AK,
I dont dispute your obvious training or credentials.
I do wonder why you have been such a crusader on this subject for so long?
I suppose some of your 918 posts have been on other subjects, but I cannot offhand recall any of your posts beyond this issue.
Just saying...
 
AK,
I dont dispute your obvious training or credentials.
I do wonder why you have been such a crusader on this subject for so long?
I suppose some of your 918 posts have been on other subjects, but I cannot offhand recall any of your posts beyond this issue.
Just saying...
Well firstly I'd like to thank you for the congenial nature of your post. The emotional ad hominem rhetoric by certain others is getting tiresome.

I would like to state that I don't consider myself to be a "crusader", if you will, on this one particular subject. I do however consider myself to be fairly well informed and educated regarding both firearms and explosives and their related legislation. Regarding the topic of tracer ammunition there was a large shipment of 7.62x39mm that was imported and sold, but then ordered removed from store shelves by the Explosives Regulatory Division (colloquially generalized here as "NRCAN"). Board members were up in arms with the usual hyperbole and derision toward the government, accusations of agendas, all of that. I happened to be going to Ottawa to meet with ERD to discuss other matters and volunteered to ask why this was done. The answers I was given are the ones I've been "crusading" with.

What I find odd and still haven't been able to figure out, is how this community prides itself on being responsible and law-abiding when it comes to firearms law but explosives laws seem to be casually ignored. It could be said that explosives regulations are less straightforward than firearms ones, or are at least dealt with on a less regular basis so the public is not as informed as an industry insider might be. When I returned from Ottawa I shared my findings with the board and was summarily vilified by the peanut gallery because they didn't like the message I delivered. I didn't write the law and neither did the people at ERD but we all became convenient targets of frustration.

Being an industry insider affords me access to news and information that doesn't make mainstream media. While I do not have direct knowledge of someone being charged with possession of tracer ammunition I know that it is enough of a concern for ERD to do something about it, and I DO have knowledge of seizures and charges they have brought against companies and individuals for similar possession offenses. They are not an enforcement agency so they work with local police and the RCMP, meaning that they share this information with them. It is not unrealistic to expect that as time goes on such information will eventually be disseminated to front line cops, whose job it is to enforce ALL written laws.

Let's assume this scenario: a young man is at a gravel pit blasting away with a non-restricted SKS and tracer rounds. The SKS has a Tapco stock and a 5/20 magazine and "looks scary" but is otherwise perfectly legal. The local police have been getting complaints of "automatic fire" coming from the pit so they investigate it. One of the attending officers doesn't like guns or gun owners. See where this is heading? "I'm gonna check everything here with a fine tooth comb to see if I can nail this guy for something..."

Here's another scenario, pertinent to this thread. A shooter walks into a store to buy some surplus 7.62x39mm ball. They casually ignore the green tips, assuming it's like those red-tipped Hornady bullets for hunting. It's autumn and there hasn't been rain at his local shooting hole for weeks. The first shot lights the tracer composition a hundred yards out which separates from the base of the bullet and ricochets into the forest with two years worth of deadfall. The ensuing wildfire burns ten thousand acres and costs millions of dollars to extinguish. Far fetched? Ask this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln2hID9psFY or any military who's had similar incidents during training. Google "tracer ammunition wildfire", articles are legion. I am not suggesting this is reason to prohibit them but it outlines a plausible scenario that could lead to someone being charged (wildfire notwithstanding).

As a community we try to fight against anti-gun groups and individuals perpetuating lies, disinformation, and mistruths. We also try to assist and guide one another, bound by our kinship in firearms, to make responsible decisions that are in line with the law as it is written. My aim is not to rat anyone out or cause strife, but simply to correct a common misconception that even I held before meeting with ERD, provide factual information, and allow someone to make a rational and informed decision by knowing it. The problem is even the administration of this board seems content to ignore the issue and adopt the same mindset as the membership in that it's "not a big deal". You can ask those retailers that were paid a visit by a federal explosives inspector how much of a deal it can be made to be.

As a reasonable person I feel a modicum of responsibility to my fellow man. None of us like seeing fellow gun owners brought up on charges, spurious or frivolous as they may be. It can negatively impact the community in both perception and potential new legislation, not to mention the psychological and financial trauma to the accused. The explosives business is similar. Disinformation helps no one in situations like this and all too often the "I didn't know it was illegal" defense is invalidated in a court of law. I suppose it's cliche to suggest "I just want to help" but quite frankly, that's all I'm trying to do. If people would simply believe what I'm trying to tell them (it came straight from the horse's mouth in Ottawa, CanAm vetted it himself, and the law is also freely available online in plain language...) the process wouldn't be quite so arduous and full of dispute.

A bit long winded so thanks for reading. I hope that clarifies my intentions.
 
Aside from the arguing I have some green tip that isn't tracer. A guy next to me at range had some and I told him that he couldn't shoot it there. I traded him some regular for the day and tried his greenies later. Turned out to be non tracer. Weird or what?
 
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