#71/2 vs #8 shot

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blackpowder

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I shoot #8 in both 1oz and 11/8 at 16 yards to 27yards. It was said it would be better to shoot #71/2 at the longer yardage because they travel farther and besides that in the winter time the targets are harder to break and you need that extra weight of the #71/2. Just wondering if there is any truth to this.
 
There are two factors at play during winter:

1. The targets are harder as you say.

2. The air is denser. This has the effect of slowing down your pellets faster than in warm weather.

I've stuck with #8's this winter but I don't shoot at a high enough level to weigh in on your question. I would think an effect, if any, would be quite small.
 
Other than fun or I just did not have them, I would always choose 7 1/2 at 27 yards, no matter what the temperature.
 
:pI just finished testing 13 loads for the next issue of ClayshootingUSA. The best lead in any shell available in Canada is in the White Gold from Gamebore. The softest lead is a Canadian name, the wad also did not cover all the shot. Surprisingly, some of the budget stuff from the big three had decent lead.

I have patterns shot at a measured 40 yards. Shot size does not matter as much as choke selection and the quality of the load! You can use less choke with the better stuff.

BTW the cold dense air also slows down both the speed of the target and its spin. It should be easier to break. But, if the target absobs more humidity, then it is softer or less brittle and will not break as well. Frozen target don't break well because they are frozen, full of frozen moisture! They are no longer britlle.

Best regards,
Henry;)
 
hnachaj said:
:
BTW the cold dense air also slows down both the speed of the target and its spin. It should be easier to break.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your observations. If the target is going slower it may be easier to hit, but if its spin is slower, the break may seem less spectacular. I think that is the reason some think they are harder to break.
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Henry:

I think you'll find Gamebore's "Blue Diamond" and "Black Gold" are both loaded with the same shot as "White Gold" ... as are Kent's "Velocity" Sporting Loads.

Despite the quality of the load or the choke, by and large, most favour 7-1/2's once the distance gets to the longer ATA Handicap distances, and certainly, International Trap shooters stick to the hardest copper or nickel plated 7-1/2's they can find ... can't convince them (or me) that 8's or 9's would be an advantage, no matter how good the load or how tight the choke.

Yes I know 8's, 8-1/2's & 9's will break targets at ridiculous distances, but IMHO, those with the most on the line still prefer 7-1/2's.
 
beretta boy said:
Henry:

I think you'll find Gamebore's "Blue Diamond" and "Black Gold" are both loaded with the same shot as "White Gold" ... as are Kent's "Velocity" Sporting Loads.

Despite the quality of the load or the choke, by and large, most favour 7-1/2's once the distance gets to the longer ATA Handicap distances, and certainly, International Trap shooters stick to the hardest copper or nickel plated 7-1/2's they can find ... can't convince them (or me) that 8's or 9's would be an advantage, no matter how good the load or how tight the choke.

Yes I know 8's, 8-1/2's & 9's will break targets at ridiculous distances, but IMHO, those with the most on the line still prefer 7-1/2's.
Click to expand...

What about the 16 yard line? Do you think the greater number of pellets might be an advantage there? I have been tempted to use #8 1/2 or #9.
 
The Kent Velocity do not use the same lead! Copper or any other plating does not make the shell harder. It keeps them from sticking together and acts sort of a lubricant.

The European shoot a lot of 8.5 at distance. Since they shoot mostly 28 gram loads, it gives a better pattern density to 40 some yards. The real hard 7 1/2 28 gram loads are used on edge on targets and those with more distance. There is a good article by Tim Woodhouse an expert British balistician in ClayshootingUSA, regarding choke, pellet choice and pattern spread.

Best regards,
Henry;)
 
BCFred said:
What about the 16 yard line? Do you think the greater number of pellets might be an advantage there? I have been tempted to use #8 1/2 or #9.
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The way I look at it is that if your target can evade a full pattern of #8s, from the 16, I would not bet on a fringe hit of 8 1/2 or 9s being effective. Not a scientific opinion. Just and opinion.
 
I also put the type of powder being used at various temperatures into a question such as this. Also how tight the crimp is. Just part of the cold weather shooting equation.
I think the late Don Zutz was correct when you place all these factors including the primer into the cold weather shooting equation.
 
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71/2 or 8's

Personally I found diffent guns patterned shot differently
my Citori trap liked 7`1/2's hatted 8's lots of large holes in patterns
my weatherby loved 8's
my remington 1100 worked better 71/2's and 9's big holes in 8's
my duckgun 1100 loved 4's and 6's lousy with 5's
my firends 1100 loved 5's hated 4's these guns were less than 20 apart in serial numbers
have loaded lots of shells,
tried different wads,regular, hard, xtra hard, premium, shot
cases from paper on
and it is more important to find the right combination for your gun than to just say this works better, if you don't reload try different factory to fing wht fodder your particulat firearm likes.
pattern your loads yourself to find the best for you!!!!

Supermag
 
hnachaj said:
... The Kent Velocity do not use the same lead! Copper or any other plating does not make the shell harder. It keeps them from sticking together and acts sort of a lubricant.

...The European shoot a lot of 8.5 at distance. Since they shoot mostly 28 gram loads, it gives a better pattern density to 40 some yards. The real hard 7 1/2 28 gram loads are used on edge on targets and those with more distance...
Click to expand...

Since "Diamond Shot" IS a Registered Trademark of both Gamebore Cartridge Company ( Hull, England) and Kent Gamebore Corporation
( Kearneysille, WV, USA and Kent Cartridge Canada ( Markham, ON ) I'll be sure to quiz both the Chairman & President of Kent about this when I see them next.

Copper & Nickel plating are used to resist pellet deformation ... a simple coat of graphite will stop lead pellets from "sticking together" and act as a "lubricant" You're kidding, righ ? Copper & nickel plating do not serve to make lead pellets "harder" - all that expense is just for lubricating them ????

The vast majority of International Trap shooters shoot 24 grams of either copper or nickel plated No. 7-1/2 shot. With very few exceptions, these targets are all beyond 40 yards when hit, and many of them can be described as very "edgy" (let alone "hard" (composition" and "fast" ) ... and if there was any advantage to using 8's or 8-1/2's, they would be using such. Many International Skeet shooters utilize 8-1/2's ... but at roughly 1/2 the target distance. More than one "ballistics-expert-writer" has long proven that 9's just dont work reliably out past 40 yards.

There may be a small advantage to using 8-1/2's at 16 Yard ATA Trap with less choke constiction ... i.e., modified or even Improved Modified, to obtain a larger more uniform pattern, however when it's "full-choke time", it's also
" 7-1/2 time ". With the proper chokes, anything you can break at 30 or 35 yards with 9's or 8-1/2's, you can also break with 7-1/2s. But it does not work conversely - at 40 to 45 yards and beyond. Not my opinion, but that of many others, who shoot both a hell of a lot better (and worse) than I do.

Regards BB :)
 
Here is some info on copper and nickle plated shot:
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnoidArchive/14-Jun-07.pdf

The tests that I did for the upcoming article prove that there is no advantge in plating when it comes to deformation. It all has to do with how much antimony there is in the lead mixtures.

You can use a very long nose plyers to see for yourself. In my article I used a test rig with a weight that was dropped from the same height. It had been used by one of the NA major manufacturers at trade shows. You could also buy a lead hardness tester from Brownells. For me, it was not worth the $$$ as I wanted to see a comparison and not actual figues.

For another example of why plating does not prevent distortion, the brass (much harder than copper) plating of steel shotshell bases does not prevent them from being nicked or damaged! Plating in industry is used to combat corrosion or to ad lubricity between certain components. Example: stainless on stainless gauls. When one piece of stainless is nickel plated there is no more gauling.

Best regards,
Henry;)
 
SUPERMAG said:
Personally I found diffent guns patterned shot differently
my Citori trap liked 7`1/2's hatted 8's lots of large holes in patterns
pattern your loads yourself to find the best for you!!!!
Supermag
Click to expand...

x2 I seem to get holes in patterns with #8 shot in my Citori Trap too, especially with 1 ounce loads, which I want to use. So, I use 1 1/16 oz or 1 1/8 oz loads with #8. Wondered if I was going crazy. One problem with doing these kind of comparisons, of course, is the question of how many patterns one looks at before drawing some sort of firm conclusion and how far one goes in counting pellet marks and so on. (I recall someone on another forum asking another shooter if he was into shooting clays or patterning boards, for example.:)) I usually test 5 shells at the same distance with separate sheets of patterning paper. (How many shots I take at one stand in trap, but it's a pretty arbitrary decision I have made here.) I see a fair amount of variation in patterns at 36 yards, which suggests one might be advised to test more. There is always the possibility that the patterning results could be related to other than shot size, e.g. shot quality or consistency in loading, etc.
 
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