I was wondering if anyone has used 777 charge pellets and had an issue with reloading. CVA recommends IMR White Hots instead for my inline. I bought a box of 777 a couple weeks ago and took them to the range today. After firing one round, I had trouble reloading to the point of breaking the tip off my ramrod. I had been previously using loose grain and measuring my loads and shooting power belts. I'm just wondering if what made it harder to load was the residue from the 777 or using sabots instead of power belts??
777 vs White Hots
- Thread starter kwmack
- Start date
777 does leave a residue in some rifles. The stuff is (partly - 10%) made from a sugar based compound and it can leave a "crud ring" effectively reducing the barrel size because of the hard "ring" that builds up on the barrel wall - and the crap is super hard.
White Hots do not contain the (dextrin) sugar substance so do not produce the same crud.
Despite the claims, in "real world testing" White Hot charges of the same weight shot consistently "slower" than 777.
You also have the option of running regular Pyrodex (loose or pellets) - while it "looks dirtier" you have to clean all of these (powders) equally well to prevent "rust" in the barrel - they all contain Potassium Perchlorate an oxidizing salt which can be down right nasty to steel if you don't clean it all out.
Regardless of what you do, you are going to have to retry your loads and possibly adjust your sights/scope, because when you change powder you rarely get the same impact point as with your old (powder) - plus you may find that your "bullet of choice" doesn't group so well with the new propellant.
PS - all of them mentioned are made by the same company - IMR/Hodgdon and even if you shot real black powder (Goex) - ya, they own that too
White Hots do not contain the (dextrin) sugar substance so do not produce the same crud.
Despite the claims, in "real world testing" White Hot charges of the same weight shot consistently "slower" than 777.
You also have the option of running regular Pyrodex (loose or pellets) - while it "looks dirtier" you have to clean all of these (powders) equally well to prevent "rust" in the barrel - they all contain Potassium Perchlorate an oxidizing salt which can be down right nasty to steel if you don't clean it all out.
Regardless of what you do, you are going to have to retry your loads and possibly adjust your sights/scope, because when you change powder you rarely get the same impact point as with your old (powder) - plus you may find that your "bullet of choice" doesn't group so well with the new propellant.
PS - all of them mentioned are made by the same company - IMR/Hodgdon and even if you shot real black powder (Goex) - ya, they own that too
Interesting, is there any detriment to using pyrodex powder instead of the pellets, except the ease of measuring? Sorry to intrude op, hope this helps you too!
I do have some Goex too and didn't mind measuring at all, but just wanted the liberty of using either/or at times. Guess I may have to go back to the Goex
The plastic from a Sabot or the plastic ring on the Power Belt doesn't seem to cause much of an issue as far a barrel fouling - at least in the field/range. Like anything (even a lead bullet), a good cleaning after a day of shooting will usually clean all that crap out of the rifling.
A few years back a few of us got together and did some (sorta) scientific tests to see what the different powders would do to steel (and the pellets or sticks are just formed powder, so whether it's a 777 pellet or loose 777 it shouldn't make much of a difference). We tested 777, Pyrodex, Shockey's Gold, Blackhorn 209 and Goex (what we collectively had available).
We took some steel plates, sanded off one side (to clean away any contamination) and touched off about 10 grains of powder (small pile - each powder got their own plate so there was no cross contamination) and then just left it out in the elements for a week to see what would happen.
There was "no sign" of rust on the 777 plate.
There was "some rust" on the 209 plate.
The Shockeys and Pyrodex plates were clearly rusty, but only "slightly less" than the Goex.
Our conclusion was, that anything other than 777 WILL Rust your barrel if you fail to clean it after shooting - regardless of the claims they make.
I shoot loose powder myself and either Goex (first choice) or Pyrodex Select, but I do shoot side hammer guns with number 11 caps so need something that's "easy to ignite" - the 209 and 777 are the most difficult to ignite of the powders we tested.
Even if I could shoot pellets I would opt for loose powder - because, you can infinitely tailor your load - with pellets you are limited to 50 and 30 grain pellets - so could shoot 50, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110 - but what if you get your best groups with 95 grains? - you would never know if you limit yourself to pellets (plus the 30 grain pellets are usually more expensive then the 50's, which are expensive enough - a pound of powder will give you about 70 X 100 grain loads
Yes, it is "slightly more of a hassle" to shoot loose. But I simply measure at home and dump the charge into a speed loader (which also holds the bullet and the cap) - and just carry that into the field/range when shooting.
A quick check at Cabela's (just to get a retail price) shows a box of 100 50 grain 777 pellets is $50 - that will give you 50, 100 grain "loads" (or a buck a shot).
A pound of 777 is $45 and will give you 70, 100 grain loads (64 cents a shot) - so if you shoot a lot it could add up - but maybe you consider the convenience of pellets "worth" the premium.
A few years back a few of us got together and did some (sorta) scientific tests to see what the different powders would do to steel (and the pellets or sticks are just formed powder, so whether it's a 777 pellet or loose 777 it shouldn't make much of a difference). We tested 777, Pyrodex, Shockey's Gold, Blackhorn 209 and Goex (what we collectively had available).
We took some steel plates, sanded off one side (to clean away any contamination) and touched off about 10 grains of powder (small pile - each powder got their own plate so there was no cross contamination) and then just left it out in the elements for a week to see what would happen.
There was "no sign" of rust on the 777 plate.
There was "some rust" on the 209 plate.
The Shockeys and Pyrodex plates were clearly rusty, but only "slightly less" than the Goex.
Our conclusion was, that anything other than 777 WILL Rust your barrel if you fail to clean it after shooting - regardless of the claims they make.
I shoot loose powder myself and either Goex (first choice) or Pyrodex Select, but I do shoot side hammer guns with number 11 caps so need something that's "easy to ignite" - the 209 and 777 are the most difficult to ignite of the powders we tested.
Even if I could shoot pellets I would opt for loose powder - because, you can infinitely tailor your load - with pellets you are limited to 50 and 30 grain pellets - so could shoot 50, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110 - but what if you get your best groups with 95 grains? - you would never know if you limit yourself to pellets (plus the 30 grain pellets are usually more expensive then the 50's, which are expensive enough - a pound of powder will give you about 70 X 100 grain loads
Yes, it is "slightly more of a hassle" to shoot loose. But I simply measure at home and dump the charge into a speed loader (which also holds the bullet and the cap) - and just carry that into the field/range when shooting.
A quick check at Cabela's (just to get a retail price) shows a box of 100 50 grain 777 pellets is $50 - that will give you 50, 100 grain "loads" (or a buck a shot).
A pound of 777 is $45 and will give you 70, 100 grain loads (64 cents a shot) - so if you shoot a lot it could add up - but maybe you consider the convenience of pellets "worth" the premium.
Great info. I never had an issue with reloading with Goex...only with 777. If I was in the field and needed to reload on a deer, he would have gotten away!
I have a T/C prohunter and I started with 777 pellets, too dirty. I had to use a patch after every shot and even then after 10 or so shots it needed a good scrubbing with a brush. I moved to White hots, cleaner but the saboted bullets still got hard to load after a few shots and accuracy was mediocre.
I settled on using Buckhorn, it is a loose powder but I can shoot for days with out cleaning and no rust and no crud rings. It is expense though.
I settled on using Buckhorn, it is a loose powder but I can shoot for days with out cleaning and no rust and no crud rings. It is expense though.
I don't know the answer to that and in the muzzle loading groups I belong to that question has been tossed around a lot.
They (caps) "explode" and send a flash down the channel, whether through the touch hole on a flintlock, nipple/channel on a side lock or inline", so there is "some residue", but I would suggest no where near enough to cause significant fouling - especially not compared to the main charge. Black powder and the substitutes is well known to be "inefficient" - you probably blow upwards of 30% of it out of the end of the barrel "unburned or still burning", after the bullet has exited.
There is a few formula's out there that calculate how much powder a barrel can consume - it's based on the bore (caliber) and length of the barrel. Most 50 caliber in-lines have relatively "short barrels" as far as muzzle loaders are concerned and most who shoot them load them up with 100 grains (2 pellets).
In order to consume 100% of that 100 grains of (powder) the barrel would have to be about 46" long. And I do mean "consume all the powder" - so if the barrel was 46" the powder would be 100% consumed almost exactly as the bullet was exiting the barrel = maximum efficiency. The effect of using more powder than the barrel can efficiently consume produces two basic results - 1) it makes the bullet go faster (due to greater pressure behind the bullet) - and most would say it's a good thing, but 2) there is still powder that "hasn't been consumed" by the time the bullet exits so "some of it" gets blown out the open muzzle also leaving behind all kinds of "crud" IN the barrel.
And the efficiency is "worse" the shorter the barrel you use. A 28" 50 caliber barrel can only "efficiently consume" about 63 grains of powder, so in a 100 grain load you have "wasted" about 40% of your powder's "efficiency" - you still gained speed (compared to ONLY using 63 grains) but by using almost 40% "more powder" you got nowhere near "40% more speed" - (from the Lyman manual, a 60 grain charge shooting a 300gr Sabot would give you a muzzle velocity of 1184 fps - with 100 grains you would get 1358 fps (174 fps more = 14% more speed for 40% more powder).
I would say, in light of that, any residue produced by the "cap" is minuscule in comparison, but most probably leads to fouling in the "flash channel" as opposed to the barrel (which is why there are "nipple picks" available as an accessory).
But yes, in the test we just put a little pile (10 grains) of powder on the steel plate and touched it off with a BBQ lighter, so aside from the butane that ignited it there was no other "contamination" at the time of ignition (or as close as we could get).
But all black powders/subs leave hygroscopic residue (and full of salt) after thay are fired - they attract and absorb water. So while 777 didn't cause rust even after a week, it "eventually" would have led to rust (you just can be a little more lax about cleaning) because the residue (crud) does "attract and absorb water" which is obviously "bad news" against bare steel.
They (caps) "explode" and send a flash down the channel, whether through the touch hole on a flintlock, nipple/channel on a side lock or inline", so there is "some residue", but I would suggest no where near enough to cause significant fouling - especially not compared to the main charge. Black powder and the substitutes is well known to be "inefficient" - you probably blow upwards of 30% of it out of the end of the barrel "unburned or still burning", after the bullet has exited.
There is a few formula's out there that calculate how much powder a barrel can consume - it's based on the bore (caliber) and length of the barrel. Most 50 caliber in-lines have relatively "short barrels" as far as muzzle loaders are concerned and most who shoot them load them up with 100 grains (2 pellets).
In order to consume 100% of that 100 grains of (powder) the barrel would have to be about 46" long. And I do mean "consume all the powder" - so if the barrel was 46" the powder would be 100% consumed almost exactly as the bullet was exiting the barrel = maximum efficiency. The effect of using more powder than the barrel can efficiently consume produces two basic results - 1) it makes the bullet go faster (due to greater pressure behind the bullet) - and most would say it's a good thing, but 2) there is still powder that "hasn't been consumed" by the time the bullet exits so "some of it" gets blown out the open muzzle also leaving behind all kinds of "crud" IN the barrel.
And the efficiency is "worse" the shorter the barrel you use. A 28" 50 caliber barrel can only "efficiently consume" about 63 grains of powder, so in a 100 grain load you have "wasted" about 40% of your powder's "efficiency" - you still gained speed (compared to ONLY using 63 grains) but by using almost 40% "more powder" you got nowhere near "40% more speed" - (from the Lyman manual, a 60 grain charge shooting a 300gr Sabot would give you a muzzle velocity of 1184 fps - with 100 grains you would get 1358 fps (174 fps more = 14% more speed for 40% more powder).
I would say, in light of that, any residue produced by the "cap" is minuscule in comparison, but most probably leads to fouling in the "flash channel" as opposed to the barrel (which is why there are "nipple picks" available as an accessory).
But yes, in the test we just put a little pile (10 grains) of powder on the steel plate and touched it off with a BBQ lighter, so aside from the butane that ignited it there was no other "contamination" at the time of ignition (or as close as we could get).
But all black powders/subs leave hygroscopic residue (and full of salt) after thay are fired - they attract and absorb water. So while 777 didn't cause rust even after a week, it "eventually" would have led to rust (you just can be a little more lax about cleaning) because the residue (crud) does "attract and absorb water" which is obviously "bad news" against bare steel.
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I have used black powder, Pyrodex and 777 over the years and hands down 777 is the one I use. Power belts are IMO not the best bullets out there by any means. They are made to fit all guns and some My TC Encore and my Nephews 54 Knight the bullets will literally slide off the charge when tipped upside down. That and the fact that my nephew put no less than 5, 54 powerbelts into the shoulder of a buck from 25 yds and not a one penetrated the shoulder blade leads me to think pressure leakage was an issue.
Sabots and 777 I can shoot all day. Shotgun primers do foul quite a bit. I use small rifle primers and if you fire one of each the fouling difference is noticeable.
The one time I used Pyrodex I left the gun for 24 hours and the fouling had scored the seating area of the barrel and a stainless breech plug. Never again!!
I have tried 777pellets and loose with a chronograph and the difference between the pellets and the loose is about 350-400 ft.
The bad news is 777 does not keep. Pellets will have a noticeable change in velocity in 12 months and after than ignition becomes a problem. Loose FFFG not as bad but last years powder will shoot 12 inches low the following deer season. Split a pound with a buddy is what I do
Just a few observations after more tha a few years of muzzlelaoder hunting
Sabots and 777 I can shoot all day. Shotgun primers do foul quite a bit. I use small rifle primers and if you fire one of each the fouling difference is noticeable.
The one time I used Pyrodex I left the gun for 24 hours and the fouling had scored the seating area of the barrel and a stainless breech plug. Never again!!
I have tried 777pellets and loose with a chronograph and the difference between the pellets and the loose is about 350-400 ft.
The bad news is 777 does not keep. Pellets will have a noticeable change in velocity in 12 months and after than ignition becomes a problem. Loose FFFG not as bad but last years powder will shoot 12 inches low the following deer season. Split a pound with a buddy is what I do
Just a few observations after more tha a few years of muzzlelaoder hunting
That is also a consideration. There is a video on youtube where the CVA guys said that 209 shotgun primers (which I'm using) had too much of a spark...even to the degree of being able to push the bullet out of the barrel on its own. They now recommend 209 muzzleloader primers instead of shotgun ones that the gun was designed to take.
Modern Muzzleloading 101
1. A fresh can of loose T7.
2. Don't buy into the primer hype.
3. Power belts are crap.
4. Windex swab between shots.
5. Magnum loads are seldom required.
7. Vinegar is an awesome way to clean fouled breach plugs.
1. A fresh can of loose T7.
2. Don't buy into the primer hype.
3. Power belts are crap.
4. Windex swab between shots.
5. Magnum loads are seldom required.
7. Vinegar is an awesome way to clean fouled breach plugs.
monster hunter
CGN Regular
- Location
- nova scotia
blackhorn powder is the cleanest out there . can be a little hard to find, expensive , should have a breech plug that's made for using it, or modified ( drilled larger flash hole)
but its way cleaner , a lot less smoke , just clean with normal rifle products ( hoppes 9 for example)
but its way cleaner , a lot less smoke , just clean with normal rifle products ( hoppes 9 for example)
