7mm and africa

FYI, Here's Neo's eland, on the hook, next to our outfitter, Pierre Moolman:
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Man they are a big old critter ....similar size to bison for sure, just not as heavy in front end but more on the hips. This big fellow fell at 240 yards with one shot from a .30-06 spitting 165 Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. Shot placement was perfect though.....

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sheephunter said:
Martin, I appreciate what you are saying and there is a possibility she may use my .338 on the eland but after speaking with numerous PHs and African veterans, the one common theme was to shoot a gun that you were comfortable with and not afraid of. Every one of them had a story of Mr. Macho Magnum strolling into camp with more grains of bullet than brain cells and ending up with a disaster. I've seen the attitude before that size makes up for all mistakes but it ain't so. A well placed shot is still the most effective weapon in your arsenol. If that means waiting for the perfect shot, well you wait. There seems to be this misconception amoung the Macho magnum crowd that as bore size increase, so too does the ability to take questionable shots. Again, it ain't so. I've seen plenty of big North American critters, bison and Yukon moose to name two that are in the size range of an eland, very effectively taken down with a .30-06 and 165 grain bullets by waiting for perfect shot placement. I've got nothing against magnums and for those that are comfortable shooting them, they are indeed ideal but for those that aren't, shot placement and accuracy go a long way. I really don't see how much recoil you can withstand as a measure of your manhood as some posters in this thread would have you believe. Often there is a direct corelation between bore size and....well you know.

Many of the common misconceptions about bullet weight and size just don't apply to today's bonded and monometal bullets. A bad shot is a bad shot and a good shot is a good shot regardless of bore size and there isn't a plains game animal alive that you won't get adequate penetration on with a .30-06 and the proper bullet.

I hunted nilgai in Texas a year ago and while nowhere the size of eland, they are thought to be bullet-proof buy most U.S. gun writers and the ranch we were hunting on had a .338 minimum calibre policy and prefered clients to shoot a .375 or bigger. Well, when I showed up for the hunt, circumstances dictated that I ended up with a .30-06 and I was promptly told I couldn't hunt. After some begging and pleading and agreeing to an instant follow up shot by the guide, I was allowed to go hunting. To make a long story short, I waited for the perfect shot and placed a bullet exactly where the guide told be not to, right in the shoulder, and the nilgai hit the ground before he could even shoulder his super magnum. His comment was that I got lucky......personally, I like to chalk it up to a well placed Scirrocco.
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Sheephunter,
On this forum, to the guys who hunt Africa most can handle large calibres and wouldn't be stupid enough to take a gun to Africa that they can't shoot. I certainly wouldn't be, and I don't feel more of a man if I carry a big gun. I didn't take a 338 because after buying one I didn't enjoy shooting it. Alot of guys take the macho calibre thing personally here as most of us are relatively experienced hunters and shooters. When I was in Africa I took 7 animals with a total of 10 shots including the wounded Eland. We chased the Eland for 6 hours before a shot finally offerred itself and that shot was head on, I was undergunned. At that moment and since I have wished I was carrying by friend from Ft Mc's model 70 375 he offerred me before the hunt that I had shot accurately several times, in fact it't the only biggame animal I have ever lost. My PH told us all kinds of horror stories about poor shooting and complemented us on our preparation and shooting ability even though my 18 year less experienced son had a few adventures. Very few of the guys who choose to post in this forum on these threads are in that category you refer to.
Guys get pissed when you lump them in with idiot hunters who don't know how to shoot and what to shoot. In the case of the Eland, a 30-06 is definitely a marginal calibre, on a facing shot it is way more than 18 inches to the vitals, more like 30 inches and that was the only shot I had other than a 350 yard shot at a trotting Eland which me and the PH agreed was a bad idea.

My two cents.
 
A-zone said:
Check with your outfitter about your choice of bullets. And you might want to check with Neo as to why he didn't shoot it broadside until the fifth shot.

My experience with Barnes Triple Shock bullets was that they provided excellent penetration (and would be my choice again) but, in all fairness, the eland was an eye-opener. It's no moose.
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The one I shot in the front of the chest at 100 yards with my 300 winny was shot with a 168 gr TSX launched at 3200 fps and when you look at the perfect shot book written by the Zimbabwean Vet Kevin Robertson the penetration to reach the heart looks more like 30-36 inches to me, after wounding one that the PH never did find dead and is now back with his herd a bigger diameter hole sure would have helped with the tracking.
 
Martin, if you felt I was implying you were unprepared or inexperienced or a poor shot I most definitely wasn't but the fact that the eland got away when countless eland have been killed with lesser calibres is pretty good evidence that you made a poor shot. It happens, no comment on your ability or anything else, it just happens. I'm glad you can write the incident off to being under gunned but can you truthfully say that your buddy's .375 would have changed the results? No you can't.

I never lumped anyone in with an idiot hunter, most certainly not you. I think perhaps you are reading way too much into my words but I do have to question the intelligence of someone that comes on and raves about being a real man and such in relation to the calibre you shoot. Seems to me that no one is pissed so far and many are shaking their heads in agreement. I only see one person carrying on like a baby and it's not me or you.......

All that I've been trying to say is that for someone not comfortable with the recoil of a .375, a .30-06 shooting premium bullets and a well placed broadside shot will get the job done. Even you have to agree that putting a gun in someone's hands that they are afraid of is a bad idea.....don't you?
 
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sheephunter said:
A-zone, I'm having a hard time seeing where there is 18" of muscle in the centre of the chest. Get off to one side or the other or too high and I can see it and I can see how that huge dewlap would give the appearance of a chest that was a foot and a half thick but from everything I've seen and read, it just doesn't look that thick. I just called a couple buddies that have killed them and they said no way!

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Look at the diagram in the Perfect Shot by Kevin Robertson, it is absolutely 18" of more, in my case I was shooting probably about somewhat downhill making the penetration required to reach the heart and lungs even farther.
Plus they cost $1500-$2000 if I'm right and you are wrong, it's not like here where I have $38 bucks invested in my tag.
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Plus they cost $1500-$2000 if I'm right and you are wrong, it's not like here where I have $38 bucks invested in my tag.
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I guess that's where we differ. I don't care what the cost, I'm not going to take a marginal shot...$38 or $1,600. Once we get down to that point we are just paying to collect. If the perfect shot doesn't offer itself, I know bou and I would happily come home with a lifetime of experiences and no eland. If one of us makes a bad shot and it costs us $1,600, well we still have the memories. I'm paying to go on a hunt, not to go shopping for animals! I know her chances of success are far better with a rifle that she can comfortably shoot and can shoot sub MOA groups all day with than a rifle she is afraid is going to kick the crap out of her. Please tell me you see that logic.....
 
sheephunter said:
Martin, if you felt I was implying you were unprepared or inexperienced or a poor shot I most definitely wasn't but the fact that the eland got away when countless eland have been killed with lesser calibres is pretty good evidence that you made a poor shot. It happens, no comment on your ability or anything else, it just happens. I'm glad you can write the incident off to being under gunned but can you truthfully say that your buddy's .375 would have changed the results? No you can't.

I never lumped anyone in with an idiot hunter, most certainly not you. I think perhaps you are reading way too much into my words but I do have to question the intelligence of someone that comes on and raves about being a real man and such in relation to the calibre you shoot. Seems to me that no one is pissed so far and many are shaking their heads in agreement. I only see one person carrying on like a baby and it's not me or you.......

All that I've been trying to say is that for someone not comfortable with the recoil of a .375, a .30-06 shooting premium bullets and a well placed broadside shot will get the job done. Even you have to agree that putting a gun in someone's hands that they are afraid of is a bad idea.....don't you?
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I didn't think you were attacking me and as I have pointed out to you in a PM before, you do seem to enjoy attacking and starting arguments with guys on here and you generally compare them to the idiot hunter I referred to.

You didn't start the thread about what cartridge to take to Africa for Plains game, someone else planning his first hunt did, many people including me who have gone gave an opinion that you don't agree with. Unfortunately, too many of these threads you get involved in end up in the state this one is in. It's too bad, many on here including me appreciate your level of knowledge and experience but find it hard to appreciate with most threads end up in flame wars.

To restate to the original poster, I think the 7mm mag with a good 160 gr bullet would work great up to Kudu. If he is deadset on taking an eland then he should discuss it with his PH and be prepared to either think about a bigger gun for that purpose or wait for the perfect shot which may or may not appear on his very expensive trip around the world.
 
sheephunter said:
I guess that's where we differ. I don't care what the cost, I'm not going to take a marginal shot...$38 or $1,600. Once we get down to that point we are just paying to collect. If the perfect shot doesn't offer itself, I know bou and I would happily come home with a lifetime of experiences and no eland. If one of us makes a bad shot and it costs us $1,600, well we still have the memories. I'm paying to go on a hunt, not to go shopping for animals! I know her chances of success are far better with a rifle that she can comfortably shoot and can shoot sub MOA groups all day with than a rifle she is afraid is going to kick the crap out of her. Please tell me you see that logic.....
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If that's an open question, AFAIC there's nothing at all wrong with that logic. (my $.02 worth). Go for it, enjoy the experience and bring back some good memories. (Oh, yeah, and post some pictures and your stories for the rest of us).
 
I didn't think you were attacking me and as I have pointed out to you in a PM before, you do seem to enjoy attacking and starting arguments with guys on here and you generally compare them to the idiot hunter I referred to.
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Martin, I was talking in generalizations and if someone got offended by it, well then maybe the shoe fits but I certainly wasn't helping anyone into the shoe. Perhaps PMs are best left as PMs and not brought to public forum?

If pointing out the idiocy of saying your manhood is in direct relation to the size of the gun you shoot then yes, I guess I do enjoy starting arguements but please don't say I generally compare them to idiots....only when the shoe fits! I respect your opinion and don't try to tell you what you mean in your posts...possibly do me the same courtesy? I always find these public personal attacks, with words you are putting in someone's mouth very distasteful and until now, would have thought it beneath you.....now can we get back to talking about guns and not my motivation for posting?

Please tell me that a picture of a crying baby isn't your next response!
 
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If you aren't confident of a 30-06 or 7MM penetrating from the front, wait for a broadside shot...or don't shoot.

BTW The Taylor TKO formula is useful when comparing rifles shooting solid bullets (which it is designed around) or even bullets of similar design, but it's useless comparing the "killing power" of different bullet designs. Unless you believe a 165gr Ballistic Tip shot at 3200 FPS would offer the same performance as a 165gr TSX at 3200FFPS, or a 165GR FMJ at 3200 FPS.

Anybody ever calculated what the TKO factor is for a baseball thrown by a pro baseball pitcher?;)
 
martinbns said:
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Look at the diagram in the Perfect Shot by Kevin Robertson, it is absolutely 18" of more, in my case I was shooting probably about somewhat downhill making the penetration required to reach the heart and lungs even farther.
Plus they cost $1500-$2000 if I'm right and you are wrong, it's not like here where I have $38 bucks invested in my tag.
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I don't see it. Even counting penetrating the dewlap there isn't 18" of meat to get through to enter the rib cage. Or am I missing something, are their necks really long, like 3 feet or more?
 
Omega said:
I don't see it. Even counting penetrating the dewlap there isn't 18" of meat to get through to enter the rib cage. Or am I missing something, are their necks really long, like 3 feet or more?
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FRom the tip of his nose to the front of his scapula would probably be three feet. Take a look at the diagram/photo in "The Perfect Shot".
 
martinbns said:
I didn't think you were attacking me and as I have pointed out to you in a PM before, you do seem to enjoy attacking and starting arguments with guys on here and you generally compare them to the idiot hunter I referred to.
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Now was you'all talkin bout the boy behind his back, like when the mods got whined to? Oh for Stevo's sake I wont post his response in PM to your whining. And I'm not "attacking" some woman. who the ell is this woman:confused:
Carry enough gun ,stand behind it as though recoil means nothing, and bravely put the shot where it oughta go. Trust me. The little force that gun applies to your shoulder wont even be felt in that hunting situation. I cannot remember the bang nor the recoil of one single game shot I made.
PS. To our orig poster, I would avoid the 7mm as a choice for one rifle. Oh you'll want to take two guns but personally I would make it a rifle /shotgun combo, cause their birding is real good depending on where you are. The only way I'd make it a two rifle combo is if buff were on the agenda. then I'd use the light sporter for everything up to kudu and the big bore for above that. If your strictly one gun for all plains game, I wouldnt be a hair under a 338 with premium stuff well placed

PSS. By God the baby pic was funny
 
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