7x57 loads with 175 grain bullets?

MD

MD

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
I admit I do not do sophisticated reloading. All I have is those little Lee Loader kits in a small box with the addition of a scale for powder weight accuracy.

I made three sample loads using 45 grains of H4350, 45.6 grain and 46 grains behind 175 grain round nose bullets , but I don't have a book or chart indicating minimum or maximum load, the 45 grain load was suggested to me as a starting point. The groups were unremarkable, possibly because the bullets don't like the 1:12 twist in my 20.5 inch barrel on my Husqvarna 4100 lightweght.

I was wanting to try a couple lighter loads maybe to tighten up the groups. How low can I go? I want to try 44.5 and possibly 44 grains.
 
You can go lower, you'll probably get somewhere around 2300 fps, but I think the problem is the rate of twist. I have a 1-10 twist in mine, and I see signs of bullet wobble on the target with 175 grainers. The holes are always slightly out of round, which is not the case with lighter bullets.
 
The Hodgdon website has all the reloading data you need for the 7x57... I would also suggest changing bullet weights if you cant get the 175's to perform. 140 - 150 grains give a nice balance between weight and velocity.
 
If the bullets are unstable due to the twist rate of your barrel, the remedy is to either increase MV (has pressure limits and limited effect) or use a shorter bullet (much greater effect).

I use 175 gr Hornady's in my M1908 sporter with a 1.866:1 twist because:

1. It has a very long throat so I can load at 3.150" to get close to the rifling - shorter sleeker bullets must jump about 0.500";
2. My effective case capacity is increased so I can go to or over 52.0 grs of H4831SC; and
3. I can because my barrel can stabilize them.
 
Last edited:
MD said:
I admit I do not do sophisticated reloading. All I have is those little Lee Loader kits in a small box with the addition of a scale for powder weight accuracy.

I made three sample loads using 45 grains of H4350, 45.6 grain and 46 grains behind 175 grain round nose bullets , but I don't have a book or chart indicating minimum or maximum load, the 45 grain load was suggested to me as a starting point. The groups were unremarkable, possibly because the bullets don't like the 1:12 twist in my 20.5 inch barrel on my Husqvarna 4100 lightweght.

I was wanting to try a couple lighter loads maybe to tighten up the groups. How low can I go? I want to try 44.5 and possibly 44 grains.
Click to expand...

We must have similar rifles - mine is also a 4100 in 7x57 with 1-12" twist. No clue at all why Husqvarna chose that twist when most previous German and Spanish 7x57 were 1-8.66. Some years later, their 7mm Rem Mag (?) had 1-9" or 1-8" twist. Maybe anticipating heavier / longer bullets in the big guy. Was a time, I think, when there was considerable concern about "over-stabilization", so was a line of thinking to use "just enough" twist to stabilize the desired bullet length. Was suggested that perhaps they were thinking 150 grain Round Nose, not the 175's. My solution was some 140 grain Woodleigh Weldcore PP SN - they were about the shortest "game suitable" bullet that I could find for 7mm. With that 20.5" barrel, just not going to get the velocity to try to overcome that slow twist rate.

Also, some overlook that the German and Spanish rifles that mostly established reputation for 7x57 had very long barrels. I have a Boer rifle here - so made by Ludw. Loewe (predecessor of DWM) in 1896 - has a 29" long barrel. Was made to shoot 173 (?) Mauser FMJ RN 7x57 ammo. Spanish rifles were similar.

Everything I had read about it says the twist rate is related to bullet length, not bullet weight. Multiple examples here of various lighter bullets that are longer than heavier ones in same diameter. So there are 154 grain 7mm boat tails that are longer than the 175 Round Nose that I have here. Almost all the Partitions are longer than equivalent weight flat base, especially the RN cup and core types.

And, as per usual with me - I have got the pile of bullet boxes looking at me - multiple choices of likely powders, finally got a Hensoldt scope installed, and have never even yet fired a shot with it - so is mostly all conjecture on my part - what "should" work, if Rigby 275 High Velocity had any merit.

As far as your loading - perhaps consider to get a couple reloading manuals instead of relying on random suggests? So, 175 grain weight - I looked in Hornady 9th manual - Hornady 175 Round Nose - #2855 - they do not list H4350 powder at all. In Hodgdon 2011 Annual Manual, page 102, shows pressure tested loading for 175 grain Nosler Partition in 7x57 - so pressure response likely different than for normal cup and core bullet construction - they show for H4350 Start load is 35.0 grains - 35,800 CUP; Max load is 37.0 grains 43,400 CUP. They used Winchester cases, WLR primer, 8.75 twist in 24" barrel. If you chose to run your 1950's rifle at pressure levels higher than CIP or SAAMI call out for 7x57, that is your call.
 
Last edited:
I find that sometimes it is not the weight of the bullet, but the length and / or bearing surface that affects the stability.
Generally, I find the older euro rifles like heavier for bore bullets rather than the North American view (they did not concern themselves as much with velocity or long range shooting as we do).
For example a VLD 175 boat tail is vastly different then a 175 gr round nose flat base.
I have made many an old euro rifle shoot sub moa with short, round nose, flat base bullets. The boat tail does harm the flight sometimes I find.
A Sauer built 300 Weatherby would not shoot any boat tails, or aggressive spitzers (I tried many loads and many powders), but was wonderful with Partitions (it was simply magic with that change).
 
cosmic said:
Potash - Something wonky here, my old Lee manual shows 49 g max load for H4350 and 175 grainers...
Click to expand...

Yeah - is a thing with having more than one source of data - often, they do not agree - have to read the fine print, I guess. I checked again, what I typed in Post #6 is what is in the Hornady #9 and the Hodgdon 2011 manual - I did not make a typo or misread, although very possible for me these days!!! I also looked in Lyman 49 - again, for 175 grain Speer Grand Slam #1643, they do not report for H4350. Does not mean is not suitable - just means those sources did not report on it. From Lyman 49, they do list IMR 4350 - is often close to H4350 but is not the same - they show Start of 41.0 and max of 45.0. Lyman data also reports using Winchester cases, WLR primers - they do not report the resulting pressure in either CUP or PSI for those loads.

Speer #14 manual does list H4350 with Speer Mag Tip SP and Grand Slam SP 175 grain bullets - 41.0 Start and 45.0 Max. Remington cases, CCI200 primers (CCI250 for ball powders). On page 360, says SAAMI limit is 46,000 CUP for 7x57. Speer thinks European ammo is loaded hotter, so the loads they report were developed to maximum pressure of 50,000 CUP.

Nosler 9 book reports H4350 with their 175 grain Accubond and Partition - page 380 - Start is 41.0 (marked as most accurate) and Max is 45.0. They also used Winchester case, WLR primers in a 1-9" twist 22" Lilja barrel. I do not see where they report on the pressure limits that they used.

Also, I do not think that the Lee organization does pressure testing - they publish loads they got from someone(s) else, previously published data - previous publisher did that testing (I presume). I really do not know where Lee gets their information from - they do not do their own pressure testing, though.

I have found to compare recipes - need the complete recipe - what brand of case, what primer, what style of bullet - all can be different - some make no difference; some makes a lot of difference. And every manual that I have says you must start at start level and work up in steps - every time that you change a component - you may or may not get to the maximum that they report, or you might go past their numbers - they are reporting what they got in their gear - with their components - they did not use your stuff to test the pressure level that they reported.

But remember - they have actual pressure testing devices - us home hand loaders do not. From numerous articles and investigation, about the best surrogate that we have for pressure is muzzle velocity - when we get same speed, with same components, allowing for barrel length differences, we are at the same breech pressure. Might have taken us more or less powder charge to get there. Most all other "home signs" like primers flattening, bolt opening, etc. have been shown to work sometimes and to not work other times - so not really dependable, like muzzle velocity.
 
Last edited:
cosmic said:
Potash - Something wonky here, my old Lee manual shows 49 g max load for H4350 and 175 grainers...
Click to expand...

Yeah... Lyman manual lists imr 4350 from 41 to 45 gr. ( no listing for h4350) . My burn rate chart shows imr as slightly faster than h4350,so a bit less powder used with the imr would be the general idea. ....catnip
 
Thank you folks. I do in fact have some manuals here, but none have H4350 with 175 grain bullets.
 
9.3mauser said:
Velocity is 2,159 and pressure 43,400 cup. I don't know why the online data is so mild, but there's plenty of room to go up from there.
Click to expand...

See post #9 above - SAAMI apparently calls out 46,000 CUP as MAP for 7x57. No doubt brass and rifles can go higher (hotter) than that - likely needs to be taken up with SAAMI?? Can load to whatever you want - just stuff in more powder. Some powder manuals do a cut-off at certain case fill - is not necessary max SAAMI or CIP pressure - some do not do compressed loads. So various reasons for maximum levels that were published??
 
OP, your rifle is much stronger than most of the loads listed in the manuals will give you.

That rifle obviously wasn't built for what you want to get out of it.

It's a "light stalking rifle" intended to stabilize 140-150 grain flat base bullets at moderate velocities.

That short 20 inch barrel inhibits velocity big time.

If this helps, I built a 7x57 using a Brazilian Mod 1908 carbine barrel, which used to be available from International, in the white.

These lovely barrels were just 22 inches long with 1-10 twist rates.

No matter what I did, I couldn't get that barrel to stabilize 160-175 grain bullets, because I just couldn't push them fast enough to get the RPMs up to where it would work.

I had a great little 7x57 M95 Spanish Carbine, with a 18.5 barrel, with a 1-8.85 twist rate, that easily stabilized everything I shot through it, including 190 grain bullets.

I loaded the 98 action/08 bbl combination hot, well beyond anything listed in the manuals. It drove 150 grain bullets at appx 2600fps with 46 grains of IMR4350

Recoil and muzzle blast were OK and accuracy was better than I could shoot.

I thought 160 grain bullets should shoot well with a similar load. Nope, it spread out all over the target.

I tried it with lighter loads and heavier loads, same results.

160 and heavier bullets are heavy/long for caliber. They need to spin fast, at least when coming out of the muzzle for the first 10 yards or so to stabilize.

That barrel wouldn't do it, but the shorter barrel with a 10% faster twist rate would.

That Husky 4100 is a very nice little rifle. Ideal for carrying up steep hills or in tight cover. I'm willing to bet it will perform just fine, with 140 grain bullets
 
That Husky 4100 is a very nice little rifle. Ideal for carrying up steep hills or in tight cover. I'm willing to bet it will perform just fine, with 140 grain bullets[/QUOTE]

Oh it has for me. That's why I like it. I made some 139 grain loads that worked fine.

I wanted to experiment with a heavier bullet because I have the 7x57, two 270s and a 280 and all shoot bullets in the 139, 40 and 150 grain range.

Sounds like the 7x57 just might be the wrong one to try that with.
 
Some years ago, that Phil Sharpe guy wanted to develop the "ideal" cartridge for most hunting. He chose 7mm bullet size, and 160 grain bullet weight. His case became known as the 7x61 Sharpe and Hart - it went through two variations of brass - Sharpe's original design was made by Norma with an "Re" on the headstamp - thicker walls, thicker case head. The second version is the Norma 7x61 Super - exact same exterior size - thinner walls, thinner case head - more inside volume - performance is within about 5% or so of a 7mm Rem Mag. He got the first rifles made by Schultz and Larsen in Denmark. Even old Elmer Keith had a mention about it in one of his articles - that the original case was about perfect for the IMR 4350 powder that was used - perfect balance of case volume, IMR 4350 pressure rise, bore size, etc. Elmer Keith himself developed a lot of fairly "leading edge" cartridges in his day, so is not insignificant that he thought the 7x61 design was well done.

You are not going to match 7x61 with your 280 Remington, but will get a lot closer than with a 7x57. Note that Sharpe was of the opinion that 7mm 160 grain was closest to ideal bullet diameter and weight for a hunting round - to balance impact, penetration, trajectory, recoil, etc. That I know of, Norma's last production run of that 7x61 ammo used 154 grain bullets, and the "Super" version of the case - I think was Norma's attempt to improve the Phil Sharpe design and to compete with the then "new" 7mm Rem Mag. The Nosler #9 Manual shows many loads for 280 Remington and 160 grain bullets with various powders well over 2,800 fps, and they got over 2,900 fps with one powder - 26" barrel. Hornady Manual #7 shows multiple loads at 2,900 fps for the 7x61 with 162 grain bullets - 24" barrel.

A friend of our son, inherited his Grandpa's (?) S&L rifle in 7x61 S&H. We had to form cases from 7mm Rem Mag brass. I loaded it with IMR 4350 powder and Hornady 154 grain Interlock bullets. Due to roughness / minor corrosion pitting in the chamber neck area, we were not able to get to the highest loads listed in the Hornady 7 manual - too tight to extract - we never did measure velocity of the load that we settled on, but likely similar to what is possible with 160 grain bullets in 280 Remington. The guy took a Saskatchewan moose that fall with a single shot. So far as he is concerned, that example of one shows that it works just fine. I stocked up on some 160 grain Partitions - intended for my 7x61 - loads are yet to be developed - has been an adventure getting bullets, and then Norma brass for it!!!
 
Last edited:
I load 120 ttsx with H414 for my sons 4100 7x57 and it is a nice package I've also used many styles of 140 and no worries there but it is not really the bees knees for larger bullets due to the twist rate I also have hunted for a many years with a 7x61 it was my first rifle and still occasionally gets used and like potashminer says you are just not going to make a 7x57 4100 a 7x61
Cheers Tony
 
47 gr of 4831 with 175 gr hornady interlocks is deadly in my 1893 mauser. it has been shortened and sporterized, and i have shot 8 moose with it. All 1 shot kills.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom