7x61

woodchopper

woodchopper

Moderator
Moderator
Rating - 100%
77   0   0
Location
WMU247 near Edmonton
just got a new project, 7x61, nice older rifle with 1 box of factory and a part box of once fired with a few factory

interesting rounds, looks like 7mmRM will work but the 7x61 is shorter, more tapered and the shoulders are a lot steeper.

I originally thought that it was just a shorter 7mmRM and I could just use some dies that were turned down a little.... Nope

looks like I am going to have to get creative or buy some dies.

any tips or hints, something I'm missing? experience doing this
 
Some years ago (2016), a friend of our son's inherited (?) a 7x61 S&H from his GrandPa - wanted to know if I could make rounds for it, since he could not find any to buy. I was able to get an older "Herter's" brand of a set of Bullet Seater and Full Length sizing dies - those ended up with that young fellow when he got the rounds that I had made up and tested in his rifle. Since then, I have bought my own 7x61 rifle on CGN EE and also found a set of "CH" brand dies - Bullet Seater and Full Length Sizer.

At the time, to make some brass - I started with 7 mm Rem Mag brass - previously fired, Remington brand, I think. I stripped the guts out of the dies and ran the brass into the bullet seating die first - that started to form the shoulders. Then finished the brass with a trip through FL sizing die after trim to length. I am pretty sure that I made 81 brass - I lost two or three to figure out the "process". At the time - Huntington (?), RCBS (?) on-line wanted several hundred dollars for a "form die kit" to transform 7 mm Rem Mag brass into 7x61 brass. Since then, I was able to get quantity of new, never fired Norma 7x61 brass on CGN EE, so I no longer "make my own".

There was a bit more fussing - I think re-formed 7 mm Rem Mag should work fine, but the rifle those shells had been fired in, must have been smidgeon larger diameter just in front of the belt - all my brass would hang up there in that Schultz and Larsen rifle - I did have a 458 Win Mag RCBS die that was able to squish that down - but an RCBS 338 Win Mag die would not. I had ordered that Larry Willis collet die at that time, but by the time it arrived, I had already discovered that I had a die that had dealt with the issue.

I had read, at the time, that the 7x61 was designed by Phil Sharpe to use 160 grain bullets and IMR 4350 powder - the closest that I could get for bullets was 154 grain Hornady Interlock - which I think is the weight used by Norma in one of their last runs of that ammo. And I used IMR 4350 powder. Lowest start loads would stick horribly in that chamber - turned out to be much pitting in there (from years and years of being ignored, I think) - we did have a handful of original Norma factory rounds, which would also stick in there when fired - that required a fair bit of polishing to clean out that chamber and neck, without affecting the head space. The young fellow got a moose with a single shot with it that Fall, on his Dad's farm in Central Saskatchewan. It seems the efforts worked. Of course, I have never even fired the one that I bought for myself - except for a handful of factory rounds - too many other things to do, I guess!

30104BC4-B4CC-4B3E-9873-8E32FFB15457.jpg

This picture is dated January, 2017 - the progression from fired 7 mm Rem Mag, to finished 7x61 S&H, without using a "form die set". From various pictures, the young guy did not get that moose until the Fall of 2017.
 

Attachments

  • 30104BC4-B4CC-4B3E-9873-8E32FFB15457.jpg
    30104BC4-B4CC-4B3E-9873-8E32FFB15457.jpg
    43.7 KB · Views: 217
Last edited:
Also, maybe you already know - Norma made TWO kinds of brass for that round, over the years - the original stuff is reputed to have thicker head and walls - is head stamped with an "Re". Later, likely in an attempt to catch up with muzzle velocity of Remington's 7 mm Magnum, the brass was made thinner - apparently of different alloy or processing of the brass used - alleged to be "just as strong" - but allowed more powder inside, even though same size on outside. Those newer brass were head stamped by Norma to be "norma 7x61 Super" - apparently not the same as the ones with the "Re" in the head stamp. So, if you work up a load that you consider safe in the "Super" brass, it likely creates more pressure in the older "Re" brass - kind of like some commercial 308 Win versus some military 7.62 NATO brass - same size on outside, but made differently, so different powder volume inside.

I do not recall if I used powder or water to compare - but my notes say that the brass I made from the Remington 7mm Magnum brass held more than the "Re" brass, but less than the "Super" brass. It would have been my practice to determine that by comparing a number of each - like 5 of each.
 
Last edited:
Potashminer, that's great info.

and yes its a 7x61 S&H

one of the boxes I have is marked 7x61 S&H the other is marked 7x61 S&H Super

I guess I'll need to track down some dies

perhaps build something with the lathe, I have a set of dies that came from auction in a box of miscellaneous stuff. The FL sizing die was cut shorter at some time, might be able to do something with that to make an intermediate die for sizing.

.... well like I needed another project to keep me busy,

well after hunting season I guess.
 
I'd just run the 7mm Rem through the 7x61 die, trim, load her up. It's headspacing on the belt so it will form first firing.
 
Yep - I think if I was doing it again, I would do as Hitzy says in Post #7. At the time, I was all wound up too get it to headspace on the shoulder for fire-forming - not sure that was actually worth the fuss to do.
 
woodchopper said:
just got a new project, 7x61, nice older rifle with 1 box of factory and a part box of once fired with a few factory

interesting rounds, looks like 7mmRM will work but the 7x61 is shorter, more tapered and the shoulders are a lot steeper.

I originally thought that it was just a shorter 7mmRM and I could just use some dies that were turned down a little.... Nope

looks like I am going to have to get creative or buy some dies.

any tips or hints, something I'm missing? experience doing this
Click to expand...

I have one of those. Dies too if you need to borrow them. I have some original brass, and some that was formed from 264 Win. Be aware that there are two versions of this cartridge with different case capacities. Great cartridge though, does pretty much everything the 7 Rem Mag does. Mine is on a dumoulin Mauser. - dan

Edited to add, I also have load data from a few sources. All of it is older though, so new new powders on the lists.
 
Last edited:
I have messed with 3 or 4- 7x61 S&H chambered Schultz and Larsen rifles.

The early models had a lazy twist [1-12"] and will not stabilize any bullet
heavier than 150 grains. The twist is marked on the barrel of these rifles.

Later rifles have a quicker twist and will work with bullets up to the 175 FB
The cartridge will basically do anything the 7mm Rem Mag will do, but never
became particularly popular here.

I have also seen a couple of Schultz and Larsen 7x61 rifles that had a 7mm
Rem Mag reamer run into them, obviously so the owner could take advantage
of the less expensive ammunition. EE.
 
dan belisle said:
I have one of those. Dies too if you need to borrow them. I have some original brass, and some that was formed from 264 Win. Be aware that there are two versions of this cartridge with different case capacities. Great cartridge though, does pretty much everything the 7 Rem Mag does. Mine is on a dumoulin Mauser. - dan

Edited to add, I also have load data from a few sources. All of it is older though, so new new powders on the lists.
Click to expand...

I'll give you a shout after hunting season to sort something out.
 
I have a 7x61 S&H on a custom rifle, it's an FN Mauser with an Apex barrel in a very nice walnut stock and a canjar trigger. As near as I can tell the rifle was unfired when I got it and it came out of an estate from a fellow who loved collecting but apparently didn't shoot. I got the rifle with 7 or 8 boxes of virgin Norma brass (not Super) and didn't have much trouble finding dies on the EE. I really haven't shot it a bunch but it loves 139 grain SST's with IMR 4350 and is running 3250 fps over the crono. Lately I've started playing with 140 grain TTSX's and the speed is good but I haven't found the right accuracy combo yet. I'd like to try Accubonds in it if I can find them.
 
Last edited:
Eagleye said:
The early models had a lazy twist [1-12"] and will not stabilize any bullet
heavier than 150 grains. The twist is marked on the barrel of these rifles.
Click to expand...

My old girl - 54J - has the slow twist barrel and loves the Hornady 154 gr InterLock SP. It also shoots 160 grain Partitions and other flat base bullets very well.

Boattail bullets however top out with 139 grain being the heaviest it shoots well.
 
I have many fond memories of this one. I owned and competed in Hunter Class matches out to 600 yd with my Schultz and Larsen M65 DL for a number of years. It was the single most accurate sporting rifle I’ve ever owned and it brought home a lot of trinkets. Too heavy for the type of hunting I was doing but a superb trigger with a laser for a barrel, weight didn’t matter for this purpose.
The cartridge was conceived by two Americans who persuaded the Danish firearms company to introduce the new cartridge in their ultra modern line of hunting rifles. These superb hunting rifles were never well distributed in North America but the cartridge quickly developed an enthusiastic following which led to Remington introducing the very similar 7mm Remington Magnum which went on to resounding success and effectively squashed the Danish import. The slight ballistic advantage of the Remington was due to it’s slightly greater case capacity and this was addressed by a slight redesign of the S & H case into the 7x61 S+H Super which had identical external dimensions but thinner, tougher brass for increased case capacity. The new brass was headstamped 7x61 S+H RE, but to add to the confusion, the rifles about the same time were marked 7x61 Super or 7x61 S+H Super, referring to the now standard faster twist barrels. The various headstamps are interchangeable in the various versions of rifle chamberings but velocities and POI will not be the same. The final version of the 7x61 S+H Super was effectively the equal ballistically of the Remington product and those beautifully built and superbly precise Schultz and Larsen rifles could shoot circles around the other rifles of the day but they couldn’t compete in the North American market with the big Green Machine.
 
Ashcroft said:
I have many fond memories of this one. I owned and competed in Hunter Class matches out to 600 yd with my Schultz and Larsen M65 DL for a number of years. It was the single most accurate sporting rifle I’ve ever owned and it brought home a lot of trinkets. Too heavy for the type of hunting I was doing but a superb trigger with a laser for a barrel, weight didn’t matter for this purpose.
The cartridge was conceived by two Americans who persuaded the Danish firearms company to introduce the new cartridge in their ultra modern line of hunting rifles. These superb hunting rifles were never well distributed in North America but the cartridge quickly developed an enthusiastic following which led to Remington introducing the very similar 7mm Remington Magnum which went on to resounding success and effectively squashed the Danish import. The slight ballistic advantage of the Remington was due to it’s slightly greater case capacity and this was addressed by a slight redesign of the S & H case into the 7x61 S+H Super which had identical external dimensions but thinner, tougher brass for increased case capacity. The new brass was headstamped 7x61 S+H RE, but to add to the confusion, the rifles about the same time were marked 7x61 Super or 7x61 S+H Super, referring to the now standard faster twist barrels. The various headstamps are interchangeable in the various versions of rifle chamberings but velocities and POI will not be the same. The final version of the 7x61 S+H Super was effectively the equal ballistically of the Remington product and those beautifully built and superbly precise Schultz and Larsen rifles could shoot circles around the other rifles of the day but they couldn’t compete in the North American market with the big Green Machine.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify things regarding the old and new 7x61 cases, the headstamps are:

Old: "Norma Re 7x61 S&H"

New: “Norma Super 7x61”.

The old and new cases had nothing whatsoever to do with barrel twist, just an increased capacity of 5 grains for the new cases over the older cases.
Schultz & Larsen rifles in 7x61--older and newer, including those with the faster 1:10 twist--were stamped "7x61 S&H" on their barrels.
 
Last edited:
Potashminer said:
Some years ago (2016), a friend of our son's inherited (?) a 7x61 S&H from his GrandPa - wanted to know if I could make rounds for it, since he could not find any to buy. I was able to get an older "Herter's" brand of a set of Bullet Seater and Full Length sizing dies - those ended up with that young fellow when he got the rounds that I had made up and tested in his rifle. Since then, I have bought my own 7x61 rifle on CGN EE and also found a set of "CH" brand dies - Bullet Seater and Full Length Sizer.

At the time, to make some brass - I started with 7 mm Rem Mag brass - previously fired, Remington brand, I think. I stripped the guts out of the dies and ran the brass into the bullet seating die first - that started to form the shoulders. Then finished the brass with a trip through FL sizing die after trim to length. I am pretty sure that I made 81 brass - I lost two or three to figure out the "process". At the time - Huntington (?), RCBS (?) on-line wanted several hundred dollars for a "form die kit" to transform 7 mm Rem Mag brass into 7x61 brass. Since then, I was able to get quantity of new, never fired Norma 7x61 brass on CGN EE, so I no longer "make my own".

There was a bit more fussing - I think re-formed 7 mm Rem Mag should work fine, but the rifle those shells had been fired in, must have been smidgeon larger diameter just in front of the belt - all my brass would hang up there in that Schultz and Larsen rifle - I did have a 458 Win Mag RCBS die that was able to squish that down - but an RCBS 338 Win Mag die would not. I had ordered that Larry Willis collet die at that time, but by the time it arrived, I had already discovered that I had a die that had dealt with the issue.

I had read, at the time, that the 7x61 was designed by Phil Sharpe to use 160 grain bullets and IMR 4350 powder - the closest that I could get for bullets was 154 grain Hornady Interlock - which I think is the weight used by Norma in one of their last runs of that ammo. And I used IMR 4350 powder. Lowest start loads would stick horribly in that chamber - turned out to be much pitting in there (from years and years of being ignored, I think) - we did have a handful of original Norma factory rounds, which would also stick in there when fired - that required a fair bit of polishing to clean out that chamber and neck, without affecting the head space. The young fellow got a moose with a single shot with it that Fall, on his Dad's farm in Central Saskatchewan. It seems the efforts worked. Of course, I have never even fired the one that I bought for myself - except for a handful of factory rounds - too many other things to do, I guess!

View attachment 716602

This picture is dated January, 2017 - the progression from fired 7 mm Rem Mag, to finished 7x61 S&H, without using a "form die set". From various pictures, the young guy did not get that moose until the Fall of 2017.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about forming 7x61 S&H brass from 7 Rem. Mag. cases. It seems to me that some work on the necks of formed cases would be needed because much of what ends up in the neck of the formed 7x61 case would have come from the shoulder of the 7 Rem. Mag. case. When displacing the brass of the parent case, the brass has to go somewhere, and that would be into the neck of the formed case, and this might well produce varying brass thickness, such as an increase in thickness at certain parts of the necks, in the necks of the formed cases. The fix would seem to be to expand the case necks of the newly-formed 7x61 cases with an expander mandrel and then turn the necks to produce consistency of thickness in the neck and to get that thickness to what is desired.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
South Pender said:
Just to clarify things regarding the old and new 7x61 cases, the headstamps are:

Old: "Norma Re 7x61 S&H"

New: “Norma Super 7x61”.

The old and new cases had nothing whatsoever to do with barrel twist, just an increased capacity of 5 grains for the new cases over the older cases.
Schultz & Larsen rifles in 7x61--older and newer, including those with the faster 1:10 twist--were marked "7x61 S&H".
Click to expand...

To start with, I try to stay with a properly head stamped brass. As such, I've had to scrounge pretty hard in some cases, to keep from forming cases from other calibers. To that end, I recently acquired some properly and hard to find custom head stamped brass for a custom rifle in 375 Chatfield Taylor. The only caliber I have that I have to use formed brass in is an old Winchester High Wall, chambered in 219 Donaldson Wasp. Those casings, I make from 30-30 brass.
Back to the 7x61 S&H, and sorry for the side tracking, I did have a decent supply of both of the head stampings you've mentioned. Traded off the older Norma Re 7x61 S&H and stayed with the newer Norma Super 7x61.
 
It's just been brought my attention that a US company is selling what appears to be unfired Norma Super 7x61 brass at reasonable prices:

https://ravenrocksprecision.com/.

The person who told me this said that this company had indicated to him that they could ship the brass to Canada.

I'm surprised by this as I had thought that no reloading components could be shipped from the US to Canada without extensive paperwork and considerable expense. Do I have this wrong?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom