80% upper recievers? A theoretical discussion of legality

Armedsask

Armedsask

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I'm currently spring seeding and have nothing but time to ponder the world as the tractor drives itself. A dangerous situation, I know.

I am not a lawyer.

So, I saw that 0% raw upper reciever forgings are still available and legal, as they are just blocks of aluminum. We all know the 80% lower recievers are illegal because they are intended to become a firearm, and are therefore a firearm, blah blah, RCMP legal gymnastics. Prohibited machine guns.

Anyway, as upper recievers aren't firearms, the whole "it's inteded to be a firearm so it is a firearm" argument doesn't work. It is therefore either a prohibited device, or not. Now can the same logic be applied that once something could become a prohibited device, it is therefore a prohibited device before it's a prohibited device?

In short, could an 80% upper reciever be legal? When does a chunk of aluminum become an upper reciever? Or does the simple potential to become a prohibited device make it prohibited by using pre-crime thinking?

Or am I just sleep deprived?
 
Armedsask said:
I'm currently spring seeding and have nothing but time to ponder the world as the tractor drives itself. A dangerous situation, I know.

I am not a lawyer.

So, I saw that 0% raw upper reciever forgings are still available and legal, as they are just blocks of aluminum. We all know the 80% lower recievers are illegal because they are intended to become a firearm, and are therefore a firearm, blah blah, RCMP legal gymnastics. Prohibited machine guns.

Anyway, as upper recievers aren't firearms, the whole "it's inteded to be a firearm so it is a firearm" argument doesn't work. It is therefore either a prohibited device, or not. Now can the same logic be applied that once something could become a prohibited device, it is therefore a prohibited device before it's a prohibited device?

In short, could an 80% upper reciever be legal? When does a chunk of aluminum become an upper reciever? Or does the simple potential to become a prohibited device make it prohibited by using pre-crime thinking?

Or am I just sleep deprived?
Click to expand...

:popCorn:

The whole "80% receiver" being prohib bull#### is just that, bull####. The same argument can be said about commercial entities that manufacture 'semi-auto receivers' form forgings. At some point in the fabrication process, these pieces can be crafted into 'automatic receivers'. If the manufacturer doesn't have a prohib license, they should also be illegal from the get go, but those businesses are given a pass?

If an individual acquires an AR15 pattern 80% receiver with the intent to finish it off as a semi auto only (i.e. restricted), give it a serial number, and properly register it with the CFC, I'd very much like to see this go to trial. Actus reus/mens rea eh?

Now, if the intent is to make this an 'auto receiver', that's a different story.

The crown has to demonstrate that you had the intent to finish the receiver for illegal purposes (ghost, auto, no serial, etc); and it can't just say "it is prohib and you go to jail."

As for current upper receivers out in the wild... what upper receivers?
 
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As said,

Charges for possession of an 80% lower won't make it to trial, if they are the only charges.

But the law is obviously BS, shouldn't even be having the conversation.
 
Guys. He said upper.

Sure it isnt a firearm, doesnt need to be serialized so how can it be illegal.

On the flip side, you are manufacturing prohib item the same as making a 105mm handgun barrel
 
sky52 said:
Guys. He said upper.

Sure it isnt a firearm, doesnt need to be serialized so how can it be illegal.

On the flip side, you are manufacturing prohib item the same as making a 105mm handgun barrel
Click to expand...

But what if you had a 105mm handgun barrel, but it wasn't drilled all the way through? Is it still a prohibited device? That's my question.
 
in my garage is a block of aluminum 2 inches thick, 48 inches by 24 inches, my guess there is 200 0% lowers in it, should I decide to saw it in strips it will be 5%, at what time does this become stupid, a old stone carver often said he saw the finished carving in the stone, do the RCMP see AR15 lowers and uppers in the ingots used for casting
 
Armedsask, Just to lighten things up, the guy next door got a new auto steer few yrs back, when you doze off and don't program in a big power pole, things get complicated
 
Just like 10/22 mags they are not illegal

People just capitulated. There is no law saying they are illegal and until completed they don't meet the legal definition of a firearm

Shawn
 
Armedsask said:
But what if you had a 105mm handgun barrel, but it wasn't drilled all the way through? Is it still a prohibited device? That's my question.
Click to expand...

Replica prohibited device? 80% prohibited device? Gotta be illegal somehow.

In a similar vein, there was someone recently selling flintlock pistols with the touch-holes undrilled. I haven't seen those ads for a while. Did the RCMP catch up with him?
 
tharkhold said:
:popCorn:

The whole "80% receiver" being prohib bull#### is just that, bull####. The same argument can be said about commercial entities that manufacture 'semi-auto receivers' form forgings. At some point in the fabrication process, these pieces can be crafted into 'automatic receivers'. If the manufacturer doesn't have a prohib license, they should also be illegal from the get go, but those businesses are given a pass?

If an individual acquires an AR15 pattern 80% receiver with the intent to finish it off as a semi auto only (i.e. restricted), give it a serial number, and properly register it with the CFC, I'd very much like to see this go to trial. Actus reus/mens rea eh?

Now, if the intent is to make this an 'auto receiver', that's a different story.

The crown has to demonstrate that you had the intent to finish the receiver for illegal purposes (ghost, auto, no serial, etc); and it can't just say "it is prohib and you go to jail."

As for current upper receivers out in the wild... what upper receivers?
Click to expand...

Has anyone been charged with possession of 80% lowers in Canada? How were the charges dealt with? What province? I would like to dig up any and all court files with regards to this topic. Pls advise if you have any info. Thx again.
 
uglydukwling said:
Replica prohibited device? 80% prohibited device? Gotta be illegal somehow.

In a similar vein, there was someone recently selling flintlock pistols with the touch-holes undrilled. I haven't seen those ads for a while. Did the RCMP catch up with him?
Click to expand...


Standard fair to not drill touch holes on reproduction muskets (done to limit manufacturer liability).
 
I'll attempt to steer this thread back on track haha. From my understanding:
- A functional AR-15 upper receiver is a prohibited device. The RCMP will charge you, and a judge will find you guilty of possession etc.
- An incomplete AR-15 receiver may be a prohibited device. The RCMP will charge you, and a judge may find you guilty of possession.

The laws with regards to firearms are vague (either out of malice or incompetence) and the grey areas are made black&white by a judge's decision and then becomes case law etc. The biggest problem is that the vast majority of judges have no knowledge on the intricacies of firearms and rely on the RCMP "experts" thus making the RCMP defacto judge. Things get even more interesting when the RCMP influence politicians to prohibit certain firearms by law, thus making them in control of all 3 branches of government.....
 
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