8x58 Krag loads

[oldstarfire]

Anyone shooting one of the Danish Rollers in 8x58R?
I have a pristine 1898 dated version, and outside of the "manly" trigger pull, is a fun and accurate shooter.
The brass is necked 45-70 (by Brownells?) and fits with no issue.
I have been using 15.0 gr of 2400 behind a 165gr GC cast bullet.
Works well but seems a bit mild, may try 15.5gr next.
Wondering if any other load suggestions are out there??

TIA!

 

[vagrantviking]

Quick guide to previous discussions:
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/search.php?searchid=58937565

Lots of information on castboolit forums too.

 

[Andy]

Anyone shooting one of the Danish Rollers in 8x58R?

I have a pristine 1898 dated version, and outside of the "manly" trigger pull, is a fun and accurate shooter.
The brass is necked 45-70 (by Brownells?) and fits with no issue.
I have been using 15.0 gr of 2400 behind a 165gr GC cast bullet.
Works well but seems a bit mild, may try 15.5gr next.
Wondering if any other load suggestions are out there??
TIA!

Start here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-Loading-for-the-8x58-RDK-Rimmed-Danish-Krag?

15.0 grs of 2400 with a 165 gr bullet is a very light load - which is ok if it shoots well. I've used 20.0 grs with a 230 gr bullet.

 

[Tudenom]

I’m walking a similar path as you right now Starfire. I’m on hold for now until my F/L sizing die arrives, but I have a jug of 5744 plus some other powders to play with, and I’d be glad to share my experiences.

Andy’s tutorage has been a great help to me so far!

 

[Tudenom]

Tudenom the Necromancer finished his incantation and the long dead thread lazily lifted itself from its eternal slumber to plaque the living once more. "Now no one will deny my power!" Tudenom shouted triumphantly at the sky, foaming spittle sprayed from his mouth like that of a rabid dog.

Finally after many months, I've done some load testing using some of that D7544 purchased from CanadaAmmo!

I'm using:
Surplus 214 FMJ bullets pulled from some of that old 8x63 Swedish ammo Marstar brought in to Canada. They're .323 diameter and my bore is somewhere between .324 and .325 so I'm a tad undersized.
Cases are 7.62x54R blown out to chamber size using a load of bullseye and cream of wheat filler.
Primers are Federal std large rifle.
Power is D5744 (basically A5744).

In order to keep pressures down to something reasonable I'm setting my cap at 1800 fps with a 214 grain bullet. I think the Norma loaded ammo is somewhere around 2200 fps with a 196 grain jacketed bullet so that feels safe to me. I have no way of telling what kind of pressure I'm seeing so I'm using velocity as guideline.

I used 40% of maximum case capacity as the starting point which gave me a starting load of 20 grains of 5744. The case length is way short, so there's a huge jump in the cavernous chamber, but even so I'm getting some promising results. That big throat/chamber area and undersized bullet probably helps a bit with pressure too.

Range is 50m metres, and I'm using the stock sites with the long range leaf flipped up. Today was pretty windy, so I took care to fire only when the wind died down. It was around -2 to 0 degrees and heavily overcast. Not the greatest conditions but they could be worse.

20 grains
Velocity = 1297
Group size = 1 5/8"

21 grains
Velocity = 1354
Group Size = 1 5/8"

22 grains
Velocity = 1396
Group Size = 1 1/2"

23 grains
Velocity = 1496
Group size 1 1/8"

24 grains
Velocity = 1548
Group size 1 1/4"

25 grains
Velocity = 1592
Group size 1 1/2"

26 grains
Velocity 1710
Group Size 2 9/16" due to a flyer, otherwise it would have been in the 1 5/8" range

So, for today the most promising loads were in the 23 to 24 grain range, and that was reflected in the velocity standard deviation as well. Every grain gave me about 50 fps extra except for a 100 fps jump going from 25 to 26 grains, I don't really need to go higher in velocity anyways.

Brass had no pressure signs at all, primers were rounded with no sign of flattening, and for the most part until I got to 24 grains there was a lot of sooting of the case mouth.

 

[vagrantviking]

That's good information. Thanks for posting.

It's too bad your bullets aren't a better fit. Jet bullets has hard cast .324" - 327" if you want to try that. Should work fine for the velocities under 2000fps.

I made up some test loads for mine a year ago and still haven't fired them. Only have a 25m indoor range handy to me but it would still be worthwhile to do some chronograph readings.

 

[oldrodder]

I have two of these as well. I shoot cast boolits only in mine. Andy has been very helpful getting me started with this cartridge. I've made "shootable" brass out of 45-70 (ends up short) 45-90 (gives you the right length) 7.62X54R and 8X56R. It's been a while since I shot mine, so I won't comment on loads.

I did not shoot this group! I saved the photo for the load.
YMMV.

 

[Andy]

I think I've gained more satisfaction from developing handholds for the 8X58RD than anything else, with the Swiss Vetterli, 12.7X44R Swedish Rolling Block and 8X63 close seconds.

Tudenom is likely the only guy to ever shoot the pulled 8X63 bullets in the 8X58RD - he'd earn the trifecta if he tried the pulled 8X63 powder, which might be ok but I'd have to ponder that. I have used it in the Swiss Vetterli and 12.7X44 which operate in the same pressure arena, but have much greater bore diameters than the 8X58RD.

 

[Tudenom]

Tudenom is likely the only guy to ever shoot the pulled 8X63 bullets in the 8X58RD - he'd earn the trifecta if he tried the pulled 8X63 powder, which might be ok but I'd have to ponder that. I have used it in the Swiss Vetterli and 12.7X44 which operate in the same pressure arena, but have much greater bores than the 8X58RD.

That’s an interesting thought. I got velocities around 1750 fps in an 8x57 using the same surplus bullet an a starting load of 41 grains of the surplus powder. Roughly I was seeing about a 100fps per grain increase so I’m guessing that would be the maximum I’d personally be comfortable with.

I would think a 10% reduction would be a good start, so say 36 grains?

It would definitely be a sandbag and string exercise I think, there’s no telling how the swede powder would react.

 

[Tudenom]

That's good information. Thanks for posting.

It's too bad your bullets aren't a better fit. Jet bullets has hard cast .324" - 327" if you want to try that. Should work fine for the velocities under 2000fps.

That would be ideal, I’m going to do some thinking about getting a Lee 329 dia 205 mold and size the bullets down. A proper length case (or at least ones made from 8x56 brass) along with a 200+ grain round nose cast bullet would go a long way to improving accuracy that’s for sure.

I might have to work on getting a tang site though, right now at 50 yards my best group is 4 holes touching horizontally with one shot opening the group up to 1 1/8” - I think that’s the best I can do with the sights it’s wearing.

 

[oldrodder]

That would be ideal, I’m going to do some thinking about getting a Lee 329 dia 205 mold and size the bullets down. A proper length case (or at least ones made from 8x56 brass) along with a 200+ grain round nose cast bullet would go a long way to improving accuracy that’s for sure.

I might have to work on getting a tang site though, right now at 50 yards my best group is 4 holes touching horizontally with one shot opening the group up to 1 1/8” - I think that’s the best I can do with the sights it’s wearing.

Tudenom: Your best cases are made from 45-90. 8X56 still end up short. I did a little research trying to gather info on making cases for the 8X58 RDK and my .43 Spanish. I made a chart with the relevant information.

I have this chart saved on my computer but for whatever reason, I can't upload it to Imgur. So, I took a photo and uploaded thru my phone. I hope you can read it.

 

[Andy]

That’s an interesting thought. I got velocities around 1750 fps in an 8x57 using the same surplus bullet an a starting load of 41 grains of the surplus powder. Roughly I was seeing about a 100fps per grain increase so I’m guessing that would be the maximum I’d personally be comfortable with.

I would think a 10% reduction would be a good start, so say 36 grains?

It would definitely be a sandbag and string exercise I think, there’s no telling how the swede powder would react.

I just looked at my load data and I have tried the pulled 8X63 Swedish powder in the 8X58RD with a 230 gr cast bullet. 40.0 grs gave an MV of 1850 fps and I made a note that it was a "poor" load, and 35.0 grs of H4895 gave 1750 fps and had the same note. The "Poor Load" was due to a very large ES which is often a sign that the powder is operating below its effective pressure range. In these Rolling blocks, about the slowest powder that behaves well at the gun's pressure limit are the 4198's in my experience.

I also loaded that pulled powder in the 8X57 with a pulled 218 gr bullet - 45.0 grs gave 2100 fps. I think you could safely load that combination to 2300+ fps as in the larger 8X63, 2500 fps is the "Factory Load".

I've made a couple of observations that I've been reluctant to share, because it's to be used as a guide for experienced handloaders and can be misused:

1. 8X57 and 30-06 Loads mimic each other closely - this is easy to verify by looking at load tables. The value of this relationship is mostly for loaders of the 8X57, as there are many more 30-06 loads published than for the 8X57; and
2. 8X57 and 30-06 Starting Loads translate well as 8X58RD Max Loads. The much greater case capacity of the 8X58RD lowers the pressure significantly over the 8X57 and 30-06. However, powders much slower than one of the 4198's don't work well in the 8X58RD. Load data as found in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook however uses mostly fast powders and has many loads for the 8X57 and 30-06.
​

Have a look below at Cast Bullet Loads for the 8X57 214 gr bullet - I'd be content using any of these (that are 4198 or faster) in the 8X58RD, which using the "Max Grains", are mild loads in the 8X58RD. You'll note that the powders that show a Max Pressure are above what we want, but the much greater case capacity of the 8X58RD drops pressure considerably. Remember that I got 1750 fps with 35.0 grs of H4895 with a 230 gr cast bullet as a case in point. The extra 16 grs of bullet weight might have dropped the MV 50 fps over a 214 gr cast - the rest is all lower pressure.

​

 

[Tudenom]

Cool! Thanks for the tips Andy and Oldrodder