9.1 Abadie - anyone load for this???

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farshot

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A few years ago I picked up an antique double action pistol in 9.1 (x17.5R I believe) Abadie.

It is quite good condition.

I now started to wonder about shooting the thing. It appears from the net that the 9.1x17.5R was a Portugese round at around 1880-1900.

Does anyone know what brass may be used and if the .357 size bullet does fit and what a load might be?? What was the weight of the original bullets?

Was it a black powder round to begin with?

I found one schematic with a line drawing of what I believe to be the round and it states:

OAL = 28.28mm
Brass length = 17.64 mm
Rim Thickness = 1.22mm
Rim Diamter= 10.76mm
base diameter= 9.54mm
neck diamter= 9.39mm


Any help is certainly appreciated.

I will check again in my Cartriges of the World - but I did not see it last time... maybe I missed it though

thanks
 
A chamber cast might be an idea if you don't think these numbers are reliable.

Check those measurements against available brass that is in the book or find some samples and your calipers.

Best thing for bore size is to actually drive a soft slug through it. Even modern guns can vary couple thou from one barrel to the next.
 
I sat down and checked the Cartridges of the World and it appears the the 380 Revolver of Webley fame is very very close in every dimension (except for bullet diamter). it also states the Fiocchi did make this round.

Does anyone have a piece of brass in 380 Short or Long Revolver?

38 S&W is too large in overall diameter but the rim does fit for diameter and thickness.

I read where 38 special may work the best.

Any suggestions as to who may sell Fiocchi (only the brass would be great) in Canada?

I will slug the bore to see the exact size.
 
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Dimensions from "Hand Book of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges CF Metric Cartridges"
bt .372-6"
Neck .368-70"
Head .377-8"
Rim.431-3"
CL .687-9"
 
38 colt brass is a shorter version of 38 special brass and may also work.

right total length 38 spl 1.144
middle 38 long colt 1.022
left 380 .759

brass.jpg
 
without looking the cartridge up, it sounds similar to the 9.3 Dutch shell. I use a 381 bullet in mine and make my brass up from shortened 41 magnum shells. Main thing is to slug the bore so that you know what diameter bullet it takes. Also mike the chambers to see what base diameter shell you can use

cheers mooncoon
 
I actually found a 380 cartridge in my collection and it fits well _ but the bullet protrudes an 1/8 inch or so -- so that brass would be great if I can find some.

I did get 38 S&W to fit snuggly as well - it is very close in all respects.

A lead 158 gr Hornady .358 diam fits smooothly down the bbl with only light pressure.
I still will slug it when I get the chance - so I can use the 38S&W I think (even tho 380 brass may be the best)

But I need to gain a few thou in the bullet diamter. I expect about 1 140 gr was what the Portugese used --Mooncoon - where do you find 9.3mm bullets?
 
farshot said:
But I need to gain a few thou in the bullet diamter. I expect about 1 140 gr was what the Portugese used --Mooncoon - where do you find 9.3mm bullets?
Click to expand...

Quite a few years ago, I bought a box of molds from an estate. One of them was for a .385 bullet which I am guessing was for a rook rifle. I size that one down to 381 to fit my bore. A person with access to a lathe could make a cherry and ream the cannilures of a 357 bullet mold up, I suppose. Only ream the cannilures and not worry about the nose.

On further thought the 9.3 Dutch is a necked case so the 41 mag would be too large for you. What made me think it might be the same is that the RCMP classed mine as an obscure Portugese shell of virtually the same dimensions as the Dutch one

cheers mooncoon
 
thanks for the tips

I found one picture of the original round - it appears that the bullet has a -- what is the term...... the part of the bullet above the brass is wider than the part in the brass.

That would lead me to believe that one should not use a .360 diameter bullet in a 38 S&W brass as it would likely "pinch" in the cylinder -- or am I overthinking this?

If the round fits into the cylinder - and the bbl bore slugs to say .360 - it should be ok without high pressures due to pinching (as in a rifle chamber situation).....


BTW - I did consider the paper patch....
but I do see lyman molds in .360 diameter available
 
farshot said:
thanks for the tips

I found one picture of the original round - it appears that the bullet has a -- what is the term...... the part of the bullet above the brass is wider than the part in the brass.

That would lead me to believe that one should not use a .360 diameter bullet in a 38 S&W brass as it would likely "pinch" in the cylinder -- or am I overthinking this?

If the round fits into the cylinder - and the bbl bore slugs to say .360 - it should be ok without high pressures due to pinching (as in a rifle chamber situation).....


BTW - I did consider the paper patch....
but I do see lyman molds in .360 diameter available
Click to expand...

I think the term you're looking for is heel-base.

J
 
BTW - I did consider the paper patch..../QUOTE]

any firm reason you opted not to try? Just curious to know if there is a reason not to try it?

The other option is teflon tape. I have used it in place of paper patched 43 mauser bullets and it is a charmer for sure. Cheap is good, cheap and accurate is even better!
Click to expand...
 
The 9.1 uses a heel type bullet as indicated in my above post. It has been described as a variant of the .380 Revolver ctg (NB not .380" Enfield) and very similar to the 9mm Danish service ctg.
 
I havent tried paper or teflon wrap cause I have only read about it. I am not sure how you keep the paper in place as it enters the bore on firing.

I slugged the bore and it is .366-.368. Even larger than the .360 I thought I could get and use. I am sure the softer lead would expand a bit to fill the bore if used .360. According to the specs from green, it appears the head of the bullet is closer to .380. Perhaps that is the direction to try -

I will try and get a pic up soon.
 
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