9 mm - POI change between handloads and factory rounds

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Hi guys,

I'm very new to reloading, started recently to load 9mm and I ran into an issue.

I'm used to shooting Wolf commercial reloads, 9mm, 124gr, TMJ plated RN.

My reloads are using Campro 124gr plated RN, loaded with Winchester WSF (two batches 4.5 and 4.8 gr),CCI small pistol primers, previously fired brass, 1.125 OAL.

I'm shooting a 1911 in 9mm with a 5" barrel.

I've noticed that my reloads are grouping about 1.5" higher at about 15m than the Wolf rounds. Wolf ammo groups the same as 115gr Winchester factory loads, and in general I didn't notice much of a POI change between various factory rounds.

Any idea what is causing that and what could I do to maintain consistent POI between handloads and factory ammo?

Thanks!
 
This is an interesting question. Sorry I can not help but I wanted to follow this thread and the only way I know how to easily do that is to reply.
 
I would bring my powder down to 4.3 gr,make 50,and try that.I's all trail and error when working handloads in different guns.Make sure you document everything and have fun.
 
1.5"...wow, do you have that 50 cents you owe me?
No, offence...just poking fun.
Semi-auto's may be different, but if revolvers shoot high it's generally because you are running slower ( colder ) than factory original loads. The recoil impulse is already in effect before the slower bullet leaves the bbl.
My Luger will shoot higher with a slower load ( when the freaking thing will cycle...) than a faster one. But a 1911 has a different operating system than a Luger ( tilting link gun's don't shoot well in my hands...my fault) so that mixes things a tad.
I'm guessing you don't have access to a Chrono?
 
tokguy said:
1.5"...wow, do you have that 50 cents you owe me?
No, offence...just poking fun.
Semi-auto's may be different, but if revolvers shoot high it's generally because you are running slower ( colder ) than factory original loads. The recoil impulse is already in effect before the slower bullet leaves the bbl.
My Luger will shoot higher with a slower load ( when the freaking thing will cycle...) than a faster one. But a 1911 has a different operating system than a Luger ( tilting link gun's don't shoot well in my hands...my fault) so that mixes things a tad.
I'm guessing you don't have access to a Chrono?
Click to expand...


I don't notice much of a difference in recoil between my loads and factory ammo, however that could be due to fairly significant heft of a 1911. I will do more testing on the weekend in more controlled conditions.

I do have a chrony, but I need to put some lights on it for it to work indoors.

Thanks for the replies!
 
Usually printing on the target higher indicates a slower bullet that leaves the muzzle later in the recoil cycle.

Looking at the the Hodgdon web site and a powder burn rate chart I'm seeing two significant items. First off is that WSF isn't even listed as a suggested powder for loading 125gn bullets. It only shows up for the heavier 147gn bullets. On top of THAT you're loading up amounts that are over the maximum loads for the 147's. And given the often non linear pressure curves with powders what you're doing to the gun is a complete unknown.

So you are off the charts before you even get to the starting line. And that's not a wise move for anyone new to reloading. It's not even a wise move for anyone that has been reloading for a long time. Where did you find the data for WSF with this weight bullet anyway?

WSF is listed as an option for 147gn bullets but those move a lot slower and spend more time in the bore which is why WSF becomes an option. But since it's only listed for the 147gn loads it would seem that it's marginal even for that weight of bullet.

Second is that WSF on the burn rate chart is quite a few steps slower than the powders that are listed as suitable for 9mm. So that could easily result in a slower muzzle velocity and printing on the target higher.

I know that finding hand gun powders these days is a hard job. So we often have to make do. In your case I'd see if you can locate any 147gn bullets to use with this powder. And in the meantime keep on searching for a better powder that is listed as suitable for the whole range of 9mm bullet weights instead of one that just barely squeaks into the list at one extreme end of the range.

Either way I would not load any more 125's with the WSF powder.

For what you have I would look at the spent brass and check the primers for signs of high pressure. Specifically you're looking for the primer's edges being pushed out and swaged to a more square shape. At the same time high pressure will imprint the finish off the slide's face onto the rear face of the primer. And the firing pin strikes may or may not show signs of bulging out around the edges of the dimple. If any of these things are seen on your spent cases then don't shoot any more of these reloads. They are signs that you're way over the pressure limits. On 9mm the only things you should see are a SLIGHT squaring off on the primer cup edge and a SLIGHT imprinting on the face. If either is showing stronger amounts of these effects then you're over pressure. To use as a sample look at spent commercial ammo brass to see what the primers on those look like. Ignore the ones that obviously have crimped in primers and those with sealed(painted) primers. They'll mislead you. But there's lots of other cases to be found with regular non crimped primers to use as a sample of what they should look like.

More likely though from your description of the gun shooting high it's likely that you're not building up a lot of pressure. So likely the primers will look more or less unmarked other than the strike dimple. If that's the case you can shoot what you have but don't load any more. You stepped off the books and if the primers are hardly marked at all you got away with it THIS TIME. But if you try to up the power with more of this powder odd effects could easily occur and you could hurt your gun, yourself and those around you. From now on STICK TO THE BOOK LOADS! ! ! !

If your spent brass is showing signs of over pressure then you only have one option that is safe for you and the gun. Get a bullet puller and start pulling them apart.

What to do with the sights? I'd say don't do anything. Otherwise you'll end up with the sights way off when you get the proper powder to use with the 125gn bullets. Instead for now just use some "Kentucky elevation" if the primers tell you that the loads are not over pressure. And I would not load up any more of this mi
 
A difference in POI (vertical)is usually due to a different recoil pulse.

If it was me, I would switch to a faster powder, like 231 or Titegroup.

Load them in 0.3gr increments, from Start to max, and see what groups the best and which load gives you the POI you want.

If you have to use WSF, try 5.2 gr.
 
Ganderite said:
A difference in POI (vertical)is usually due to a different recoil pulse.

If it was me, I would switch to a faster powder, like 231 or Titegroup.

Load them in 0.3gr increments, from Start to max, and see what groups the best and which load gives you the POI you want.

If you have to use WSF, try 5.2 gr.
Click to expand...

Probably like me he could only find WSF. When I've used up my last few OZ of Titegroup -WSF will be all I have and I also have ~1000 124gr's.
So a most interesting topic and some great useful info herein.
Thanks
 
Ganderite said:
A difference in POI (vertical)is usually due to a different recoil pulse.

If it was me, I would switch to a faster powder, like 231 or Titegroup.

Load them in 0.3gr increments, from Start to max, and see what groups the best and which load gives you the POI you want.

If you have to use WSF, try 5.2 gr.
Click to expand...

Again, WSF is not listed as a powder to be used for 125gn bullets. So he's not going to know if this is a safe load or not.

Edited to add

I found information from an old forum post at Brian Enos from 2008. Apparently WSF was at one time listed as an option for 125gn 9mm;

From Hodgdon's website (they now do the data for Winchester):

124 GR. FMJ WSF .355" 1.169" 4.7 1015 27,700 PSI 5.3 1115 32,700 PSI
Click to expand...

OK, now I feel like a bit of an idiot for not checking something. For 125 there's no WSF shown. But for 124 there's a few different loads for both jacketed and cast.

Give me a sec' while I get a towel to wipe away the egg on my face.....:redface:
 
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I load 124 to the same Cartage Overall Length as the wolf loads. All great ideas as to faster powder closer to whatever wolf is using. To hit the same load the same.
 
The POI will change because of the velocity is different. Wolf doesn't publish what load they use for anything. So you have nothing to compare your loads to. Anyway, when you change ammo it's really unusual to not have to sight in again.
4.8 of WSF is a tick over max for a cast 124. Only a tenth, so it's not a big deal. One grain bullet weight difference doesn't matter. Jacketed or cast does though.
Plated bullets use cast bullet data. Plated bullets are not jacketed. A TMJ isn't a plated bullet. It's jacketed. All that is an apples and oranges thing. A jacketed bullet will usually go faster than any cast/plated bullet. Changes the POI. Adjustable sights are your friend,
And 1.125" is too short for a 124 or a 125. Should be 1.169".
 
No probably about it. That WILL choke a CZ. I have to load at 1.12 or less to chamber 124 and 125 in my CZ's. I tend to go for 1.10 to 1.11 just to be sure there isn't an issue.
 
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